JVC HR-S9600 TBC settings modes?

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Quote:

Although this is an easy answer, maybe even facetious, I certainly don't want misinformation online that a VCR deinterlaces, because that's not accurate nor even possible. Again, VCRs do not contain deinterlacers, and frame blending is not possible. Some aggressive NR can react badly to some tapes, but that's about it.

It is of course facetious and should be recognized as such because Olivier won't find such a VCR, not anywhere. I can think of no other way to convince him that his VCR isn't blending frames. Even if a VCR were going to blend something it wouldn't be frames; in interlaced playback it would blend fields, not frames.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

I wonder if this might be a result of a defective comb filter?

Considering the cards and software being used, that could be possible. Maybe. If the playback is interlaced, where are the full-size "frames" coming from?

[Olivier Talouarn]

Dont need to show capture and i m not allowed to show any picture of them. . Juste listen what i say. VHS Tapes are from many different sources. MXO can be matched with a AJA IO HD ... just did it with contour correction . I dont rely on "reports",i rely on direct tests.

[Olivier Talouarn]

"it would blend fields" Yes; i explained it already above.
Yes the question is, as a new user of this kind of semi pro player ; is it defective ?
SO the question is; for those who used one ;
do 9600 keep true interlacing in any modes ? Mine does not. Only in copy mode

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

Dont need to show capture and i m not allowed to show any picture of them...

Maybe find a non-proprietary tape that does not have content-sharing restrictions?

[Olivier Talouarn]

https://i.goopics.net/X0ZPb.jpg
https://i.goopics.net/w43DZ.jpg

Here it is. I don t know how to make them appear directly.

The interlaced one is done in "edit mode". Only way to keep interlacing constant.
All other are random. Same story with Best on or off.

AS i said somewhere, the VHS as out of order YC out. Spoke with seller, he will fix it, but i must send him back, in another country. So i want to collect as much info as i can before sending back.
Comb filter failing seems a good option.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn

Here it is. I don t know how to make them appear directly..

Please attach images to posts
Read this for how: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/news...ly-upload.html

[Olivier Talouarn]

01 Blend.jpg

You must be logged in to view this content; either login or register for the forum. The attached screen shots, before/after images, photos and graphics are created/posted for the benefit of site members. And you are invited to join our digital media community.

Her is an example.

[lordsmurf]

We're missing something. But not sure what.

I'd still like to see the capture card eliminated as a variable, potentially even the entire capture system or software, so as to be 100% sure it's actually the VCR with some sort of really odd issue that I've never seen. Because, again, VCRs do not contain deinterlacers.

[Olivier Talouarn]

I checked with 4 different capture cards ... the same. I can switch my BVM SD monitor (wich i love) to 'direct VHS out' or "after external TBC out" or " live capture out' . I can see interlacing in quick movement. I m trained to. So i can easily recognize a kind of progressive ... Its the VHS. AS i say i can lock it to interlace in EDIT mode. But i loose some DNR ... And yes it was bought for this. Also have a BR 7300 in a box, but didn t tested it yet, and i suspect it was used a lot. And it could fail a start ... old capacitors ...

[lordsmurf]

A sample clip would also help, 99mb max, ideally longer MP4 interlaced 4:2:2 sample.
Attached to forum.

[Olivier Talouarn]

With all corrections On, sometimes it s interlaced. But in case of a big "hole" in the tape, it can jump randomly off, or the opposite case : start with this "fields blend" and jump to interlaced if it encounters a big "hole" ...

[lordsmurf]

Hmm...
What sort of TBC do you have between the VCR and the capture card?

[dpalomaki]

Some kind of temporal noise reduction in the chain?

[Olivier Talouarn]

TBC is a Snell&Wilcox TBS24. Input in composite at this time (but in YC as soon the JVC will fe fixed), output in YC. There is a RVB out, but with separate synchro (RGBS) ... Know it can be converted to true RVB, but i try have less possible chain. It have not the NR option. It also will transcode Secam to Pal. Yes, i m in France ... country of secam, scart connector and Concorde ... (also have many secam tapes to digit, need to buy another player) But this problem occurs before it. If it was, it would happen any time. Edit mode woulndt lock to interlaced. TBC also have a "dub-Beta" in, wich will be used soon behind a BVW75 pal). Many kind of tapes ... Some DV too; no DvcPro at this time.

I dont think any (French) Secam player was ever made with an internal TBC ... Can somebody confirm ?

other question. I have severals VHS-C. Spoke with a seller, he told me to avoid cheap converters, which can destroy JVC tapes. Off cours those i have are JVC ... Should i buy a true JVC converter. Not many to sell, but i think i can find some. Or go to a manual swap of tape to a classic enclosure ? (I'd prefer to avoid this ...)

-- merged --

Well; i searched the forum and found the answer ...From Lordsmurf : "VHS-C sucks. Just transplant them into full VHS clamshells."

[lordsmurf]

That seller has mixed-up information. Either that, or you misunderstood.
- VHS-C itself is lousy, flimsy.
- JVC S-VHS VCRs tend to eat/feather VHS-C form factor tapes.
- JVC VHS and VHS-C tapes are among the best quality tapes that were made. That excludes the above info, refers only to the grade and quality of the tape itself.
- Anytime you use VHS-C, even in the better Panasonic decks, you must use one of the higher quality metal converters. Those are metal (probably aluminum) with a reason-like hard plastic. Not junk from Memorex and no-names, cheap stuff you'd find in stores.

I don't have faith in that TBC for VHS. What happens when you capture a sample without the TBC in the chain?

[Olivier Talouarn]

Well, the seller was kind enough to say "don't buy the adapter i sell" ...
I found JVC adapter to sell; but as i only have a JVC player (at this time) i will respool the tape. The more difficult seem to be fiding screwed enclosure ... any advice ?
TBC. Will (re) test without, but at this time (and i need to show results soon), as i m outputting composite from the VHS, i have cross color, and the Snell gets rid of it. Good machine. An "analog " feel. Much better than any ForA or Kramer i used in the past, very "numeric". But i was unable to find the manual, even at Grass Valey site. A true rack machine. Not even a power switch on/off. its in the metal case, as the dip switches to generate black or bars (useful) and other stuff. It s also used as a Proc Amp, classic White, Black, Chroma. Yc delay too. With clean tapes, i will take it off the chain. Hoping synchro will be good enough. Need a rolling rack, hard access to back connectors at this time. Won't go in building a patch, but still have my stock of BNC ...

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn

Attachment 9267

Attachment 9268

Her is an example.

Image1 is field blended.
Image2 is interlaced.
Neither frame size is valid for PAL. They look like cropped screen captures.

[Olivier Talouarn]

I dont know how works the "signal processing" of the 9600, but as a S-VHS, i suppose it works at minimum in YC. Or does it decompose to RVB (or YUV) to process ? I have the technical-maintenance manual , but this is over my skills.
The boss who fund this (not exactly a boss, im a free lancer) is pleased with first results, which involve Resolve for deinterlacing, (even if we will keep Interlaced in stock). Yadiff still exist as an OFXplug, but its not GPU, so terribly slow. We need to build a reasonably time consuming workflow ... so i use integrated deinterlace, which is ... basic
Resolve 15 have new features with canhelps, but if there is even better ... i want to to try QTGMC. I can't stand not trying better options if they are affordable and more or less equal in computing time. Have many Xeon cores ... let them do what they are made for ...

Yes they are hand made screen capture. Just a quick search in my first tests.
Just to show the "impossible blending" ...

Capture is Apple Pro res; 720-576. Well above bandwidth of VHS. No need for total uncompressed YUV. Total loss of disk space, wich is an economic part of any workflow.

[sanlyn]

You're a professional and you don't know how to capture a frame directly from a video? But what do the images tell us? Perhaps you can help us with a little more information. How were the tapes played? How were they captured? How were the images made? What is the difference between the field-blended frame and the interlaced frame?

You might also consider that animation is usually not interlaced but is more often progressive with pulldown.

QTGMC deinterlacing is far superior to Resolve, which is not a restoration platform. Most set top players and TV's are even better.

[lordsmurf]

A direct frame capture is more ideal that a screen capture, though I'll admit to sometimes using it myself. However, not for a thread like this.

720x576 is above resolution (not bandwidth), and uncompressed is a waste when lossless is possible. If using lossy ProRes422, just be sure the compression is zero or near-zero, and quality will be essentially lossless as well (~30gb/hour).

Not everything uses GPU, and even many that do are not any faster than CPU. Don't get the false impression that GPU is always faster, it's not. That's why computers have CPUs, after all.

I'm not convinced the S&W isn't doing something odd. Again, it's not a recommended TBC, and for a reason.

I'm also not one to use something inferior when something better exists. And it's even foolish if better is free!