Panasonic ES15 vs. new VCR for tracking issues?

[Acros_13]

Hello all.

I currently am capturing homemade VHS tapes of varying quality with a JVC S9600-->BVTBC8 (sold to me by LS)-->ATI AIW X1900 through virtual dub into HuffYUV format as is largely recommended in this forum...

Most captures are good to my eyes but I have two tapes that have parts that give me issues, apologies if I lack the proper terminology, but I feel that I see flagging, tearing, and loss of tracking. Given that I am using a VCR that has a built in line tbc and an external frame tbc already, I was wondering if adding something like a Panasonic ES15 would be perhaps beneficial, solely for these trouble tapes. Additionally, I was thinking about getting another VCR to see if that changes things. I've heard that some Sharp models for instance, though overall worse than the 9600, can sometimes be good with problematic tapes? also recently saw a YouTube video where a person showed that the ATI 600USB card by itself was able to fix some of these problems in comparison to the creators other AIW internal capture card. I have a Haupagge USB clone that I can also try, but do you think this has any merit?

I'm more the type of guy to usually just do and try all of these things before asking questions, but Unfortunately I'm away from home for the next 21 days and won't be able to do any further testing so figured in the mean time I'd reach out to the experts so that I can perhaps have a more focused stepwise approach when I return home. and hopefully source any needed new equipment in the meantime. Perhaps I can go in order of things that would most likely fix the issues, rather than following what my instincts are telling me, which is to basically buy all of the things and try it all and hope for the best.

thanks for your time!

[aramkolt]

ES10/15 might possibly help, can't really know until you try, though could also be that these are not first generation tapes (meaning a copy from a different tape) and if that's the case, the flagging could be "baked in" from when the original tape was played to make the recording from.

If it were to be mistracking, I'd expect a lot of static and horizontal bands of noise more than anything. Flagging is usually that the top edge in particular appears to be gradually shifted further to one side the higher you go up the frame.

[radiokom]

If it is tracking error try manual tracking adjustment. You have a very good VCR with all options. But remember heads should be cleaned regularly and VCR should be restored up to specs. And - I would advice to adjust maximum back tension (I believe it is adjustable in your VCR). Yes, it cause more wear to tape and heads (a little bit ) but for those old tapes it helps. And sometimes cassette shell can cause a problem.

P.S. And do not forget to clean transport, including guides, capstan, pinch roller regularly with IPA. And never use those head cleaning cassettes, to clean heads use paper soaked with IPA or lint free swabs. To find cause of your problem the first you should be sure your VCR works perfectly.

[Acros_13]

Quote:

ES10/15 might possibly help, can't really know until you try, though could also be that these are not first generation tapes (meaning a copy from a different tape) and if that's the case, the flagging could be "baked in" from when the original tape was played to make the recording from.

Thank you for the input. You might be right. In fact, on this same tape there are two instances of the same event. I wouldn't imagine why the same event could be captured on one tape, copied to another, and then that copy also copied back to the original tape so I guess this whole tape is probably a copy. And maybe the person copying the tape saw the problems and then tried copying it again, and thats why there are two instances of the same event on one tape. I might just accept it then. The second instance doesn't completely lose focus like the first one does, so it's usable, but somehow it is more blurry and way overexposed to the point where the whites are just clipped and no proc amp adjustments bring them back. other parts of the tape were also problematic but that fixed itself after FF/Rew then 2nd attempt so there does seem to be some tape issues at least as well though.

Quote:

If it is tracking error try manual tracking adjustment. You have a very good VCR with all options. But remember heads should be cleaned regularly and VCR should be restored up to specs.

yikes yes. I'll have to look into how to clean. I've never done that before so maybe that is an issue as well. if it is relatively straightforward and just involves opening the case and cleaning certain parts with certain materials I can probably manage, but if there is a lot to disassemble, I'd rather not break anything.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acros_13

yikes yes. I'll have to look into how to clean. I've never done that before so maybe that is an issue as well. if it is relatively straightforward and just involves opening the case and cleaning certain parts with certain materials I can probably manage, but if there is a lot to disassemble, I'd rather not break anything.

Only opening the case (Do not screw it back, only place on top ) But read carefully "How to" because you can spoil heads with wrong cleaning.

[Gary34]

Quote:

also recently saw a YouTube video where a person showed that the ATI 600USB card by itself was able to fix some of these problems in comparison to the creators other AIW internal capture card. I have a Haupagge USB clone that I can also try, but do you think this has any merit?

Here’s the video you are talking about. https://youtu.be/3SRoGgJZbwc?si=MkCV7Mj0dtcYl5R4 The ATI AIW cards have very good quality but they aren’t resilient at all. A lot of cards are more resilient (not freaking out because of timing errors) than the AIW cards. The resiliency of capture cards improved around 2005.

[lordsmurf]

To add some nuance to the above...

But noting that resiliency has nothing to do with image quality. While all digital ingest/capture requires (at a very minimalist/basic level) some form of TBC, the AIW quality is worth using the recommended TBC workflow. Seeking a resilient card, without giving attention to image quality, ends badly/sloppy for tape conversion quality. Certain terrible cards are far more resilient than the best cards. The reason is because the good cards "pick up" more data (for accurate capture). Age of cards is more happenstance than not, because many early cards were great (AIW), and many latter cards were crap (mostly USB junk, Easycap/"grabber" type junk). But age/timing is a general rule, not absolute.

Then remember that ES10/15 is a mere line TBC -- almost more of a TBC(ish), due to intentional weaknesses -- with a non-TBC frame sync. It's a DVD recorder, with all the downsides of DVD recorders. It just happens to have a unique passthrough feature that allows better capture (than the DVD-Video MPEG-2 format). And for combo units, using a better quality VCR (as Panasonic VHS VCRs are pretty universally crap).

ES10/15 is a "least worst" option, when either (a) nothing else works, or (b) nothing recommended can/will be purchased. The first is anti-tearing only usage (suggested use), the second is the half-baked "TBC replacement" idea.

Getting back to the OP question...

No single hardware workflow gives 100% coverage to all tapes. Every project has a "set aside" pile (as in "set aside for later"), tapes that did not cooperate with the gear.

I highly doubt this is a VCR issue.
I highly doubt this is an ATI AIW issue.
Nor a TBC issue.
It's summary of issues.

The ES10/15 will likely be the resolution here, used purely for anti-tearing.

There are actually more anti-tearing options, and without ES10/15 drawbacks, but those are rarer for TBC costs. Most people can't stomach buying two TBCs, especially not for a small "set aside" pike of tapes. Those are generally hunted down by far more serious users and archivists.

What happens when you try to capture those problem tapes:
- with JVC TBC off
- with BV TBC removed
- both off/removed

[Acros_13]

Quote:

Here’s the video you are talking about. https://youtu.be/3SRoGgJZbwc?si=MkCV7Mj0dtcYl5R4 The ATI AIW cards have very good quality but they aren’t resilient at all. A lot of cards are more resilient (not freaking out because of timing errors) than the AIW cards. The resiliency of capture cards improved around 2005.

yes sir thats the video!

Quote:

ES10/15 is a "least worst" option, when either (a) nothing else works, or (b) nothing recommended can/will be purchased. The first is anti-tearing only usage (suggested use), the second is the half-baked "TBC replacement" idea.

This would likely be my use case. To clarify, it seems it would NOT be recommended to ALWAYS have the ES10/15 in the work flow in addition to the BVTBC? I'd imagine it's not necessary and would impart extra filtering with no net gain in quality...

Quote:

There are actually more anti-tearing options, and without ES10/15 drawbacks, but those are rarer for TBC costs. Most people can't stomach buying two TBCs, especially not for a small "set aside" pike of tapes. Those are generally hunted down by far more serious users and archivists.

I would be curious, if for no other reason than to learn something new.

Quote:

What happens when you try to capture those problem tapes:
- with JVC TBC off
- with BV TBC removed
- both off/removed

I'm only 60% sure I trialled the JVC TBC on/off on this particular tape, though I did for many of the working tapes, I believe it certainly did not fix the issue and largely gave the same results as other tests, resulting in increased flickering and some more vertical bouncing (again not sure the terminology).

Not asked, but for what it's worth, toggling the "Calibration" function in the JVC menu didn't do anything noticeable either.

Unfortunately I never thought to test with the BVTBC out of the equation.

[RayNotes]

Assuming it's a problem with the tapes, manually adjusting the entry and exit rollers might help you find the sweet spot for the original tracking used to record those tapes. If it were me, and assuming this is something you've never done before, I'd buy a cheaper VCR to try, rather than experimenting on your rather high-end VCR. Not that it's terribly risky, but just sayin' - I wouldn't monkey too much with your good stuff. I use an oscilloscope when I'm doing it so I can see what the head's RF signal is doing. The image quality will tell if your getting closer though.

I did like the suggestion of transferring the tape to a new cassette - I've had this work for me before. The indicator that this is the problem is a physically audible noise coming from the VCR when trying to play the tape. If the tape is binding up you'll hear squeaking and such.

I wish you luck capturing your difficult tapes.

[Acros_13]

Quick Question, probably a dumb one, as I'm fairly certain of the answer.

But as an update to the above, I now have an ES10 on the way, as well as a cheap (spent 25$ before shipping) Sharp VC-H992 coming my way.

I plan on troubleshooting in a stepwise approach, trying my trouble tapes first with my 9600 after cleaning the heads to the best of my ability--> then adding the ES10 to my 9600 setup --> replacing JVC for Sharp w/o ES10 into my setup --> finally Sharp + ES10 as a last ditch effort.

my simple and dumb question is just to confirm that once I use my Sharp VCR to ES10, using composite video cable as its the only available connection for that VCR, it's still okay to use an S-video cable out of that into my TBC and then again into my Capture card on my PC? Obviously, I'm not expecting S-Video quality from the Sharp VCR just because I eventually use an S-Video Cable down the capture chain, but I'm just confirming that theres no reason to keep everything Compositive video just because the first step is using Composite video. The difference is whether I need to buy more cables or can use my pre-existing S-video cables for overstep except where needed.

Thanks!

[aramkolt]

Yeah, you can and should use S-Video output from the ES10. I'll even use component output if the passthrough device I'm using (some TBCs have that) if they support it. Also wouldn't be bad to just see if you can tell the difference as a quick test in capturing the same thing twice.

[Acros_13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Yeah, you can and should use S-Video output from the ES10. I'll even use component output if the passthrough device I'm using (some TBCs have that) if they support it. Also wouldn't be bad to just see if you can tell the difference as a quick test in capturing the same thing twice.

thanks for the answer! I'm glad I asked to be sure. Interesting about the component output comment, but since my external BVTBC and capture device don't have component inputs, I guess it's a moot point for me. Also yes, I probably should just do some experimenting and see if I can tell any difference with different setups.

-- merged --

Quick update and added query:

I received an ES10 and am back home finally. I planned on doing the stepwise approach to trouble shoot this tape as I explained above, but since I needed to plug the ES10 in anyway to check if it was even working, I figured might as well throw a tape at it.

Given my amateurish eyes for most of these things, and even after stress inducing A/B comparisons on my end to try to see even the faintest of benefits with for example recommended JVC VCR settings (EDIT, Calibrate, even TBC/NR etc) and only seeing slight or perhaps even just placebo level changes (with the rare exception being using EDIT on some tapes being way sharper, and the TBC function noticeably though slight stabilizing of the screen)... It was a straight up pleasant SHOCK to suddenly see very easily the difference between an almost unusable tape to one that stayed in focus and didn't 'roll' or lose tracking. a lot though not all of the tearing is gone too.

thankfully seems like I wont need to do anything crazy or buy new cassettes for this. (I did however also clean the inside of my VCR and its heads).

but my final question is wondering if anyone would be kind enough to give me a hint on what sort of things I should be looking for as far as downsides when using the ES10. Also specifically what bad things can happen when using both the JVC TBC and the ES10 in conjunction, because to my eyes I still see the JVC TBC stabilizing some of the jitter without any notable downsides. Though I am aware of a general consensus to turn off the VCR's TBC in this scenario so that they don't "fight" each other. In general the ES10 does seem to add a bit of contrast to my image, but the histogram shows no add tendency to clip anything so that seems good.

-- merged --

okay wow really rushed to conclusions unfortunately. ran into another section of the tape that was bad again. Then frustratingly rewound to the start and where it was previously good, it got bad again? sort of strange, but I guess it's reassuring that the defects come and go and therefore aren't baked into the tape like a bad copy. I've now cleaned the heads of the VCR to the best of my ability, and have used the ES10 to not much improvement. I dusted off the Hauppage which I never used before and just about the same. But that card/driver is so much more compatible with virtual dub, it is super nice to be able to adjust the levels at the same time as the histogram preview is up. The levels sub menu is greyed out with my AIW, and therefore I have to go all the way to the video filter menu in order to change things, save settings, then go back out to the histogram, which is a lot of steps.

anyone know if there is a version of the X1900 driver that is more compatible with virtual dub for these functions? not a huge deal but just wondering... also sort of petrified anyways that things will break if I try upgrading the drivers, I was lucky enough to get most everything working on the first try with my PC build (2 major exceptions, but thats another story).

Last ditch effort will be with a Sharp VCR that is somewhere in the mail on its way to me, as well as I guess, an extra ATI 600 just for fun. Not overly optimistic anymore at this point. but I'm having fun with process, so theres that.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acros_13

Then frustratingly rewound to the start and where it was previously good, it got bad again? sort of strange, but I guess it's reassuring that the defects come and go and therefore aren't baked into the tape

Be careful!

Open the tape shell. Look at the tape in that section. Do you see any imperfection? Because what you're describing does sound (sort of) like a "one and done" tape, where the tape is degrading on each use. And will eventually oxide shed.

I would need to re-read this whole thread to ascertain if this really is a possible issue here. But at a glance, very possible, so be very careful.

I don't want you to lose a valuable tape.

[radiokom]

Or it is scratched by something. Something in shell or tape transport.

[Acros_13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Be careful!

Open the tape shell. Look at the tape in that section. Do you see any imperfection? Because what you're describing does sound (sort of) like a "one and done" tape, where the tape is degrading on each use. And will eventually oxide shed.

I would need to re-read this whole thread to ascertain if this really is a possible issue here. But at a glance, very possible, so be very careful.

I don't want you to lose a valuable tape.

ugh well that takes some wind out of my sails... but thank you for the heads up! I'll figure out how to take a closer look, for now though without opening the case and just looking through the window, I can almost make believe that the edge of the film is a little "rough" almost slightly "frayed" and not entirely smooth sort of like a ribbon, is this an imperfection?

I'll put this tape aside for now and capture everything else first. Maybe then I'll just do the best I can once more, throwing everything I can at it like the Sharp VCR (assuming it works, but also maybe a good idea so I dont ruin the JVC?), ES10, and maybe use one of the ATI600 cards given some users say they might be a bit better with bad footage? run it once and hope for the best... I have previously captured this on the Canopus ADVC 300, and more recently in un compressed video with a A black magic mini converter, obviously both flawed in various ways, but I at least have the footage and this is what matters.

actually one last thing while im writing, I randomly noticed that the histogram when using the Hauppage card has deep notches, but visually I dont see any issues, should I be worried? this happens on all tapes, not just the problem one.

Thanks again.

-- merged --

Also I just realized, that if the little light on my JVC can be trusted, this tape was apparently recorded in EP mode. Even though the footage on it is only about 2hrs, so I didn't realize. Not sure how much that may contribute to my problems, but a quick google/chatGPT search tells me that a lot of what I'm seeing can be a problem with EP tapes.