Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Project Planning, Workflows

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
03-20-2016, 09:18 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 58
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've asked a few guys in PM on other boards but I realize they're probably over here now
I've been prepping to buy a new capture card/VCR/TBC setup (TBC debatable) to make new digital masters of old VHS I have.

I don't have a bottomless fund to use.

I've read lots of posts here, and appreciate the time and thoughtfulness you've all put into them, particularly about Blackmagic's Intensity 4k and the Diamond VC500.

I'm going back and forth, minute-by-minute, between these 2 (still open to others).

1) Should I really believe that a $40 Diamond card can do analog-VHS capture as good as the $180 Blackmagic? People seem to make a huge difference between the PCI-E and USB versions of the Diamond? Is there really a difference now w/ the faster MOBOs/USB ports/CPUs?

2) On *any* cap card I use, if my source is 525/625 NTSC/Pal, I absolutely cannot "line double" or cap it at 2x the input signal rez, correct? (I can read your mind..why would I want to?). Its kind of like "genclock" sync where I can never cap higher than the detected source signal?

3) If I have "clean", relatively low-played VHS tape sources that track well, and the player is decent (still looking between S-VHS JVC and S-VHS Panasonics, was a bit shocked to see how much I'm going to have to shell out), do I really need a full-frame TBC in-between? That 'built-in TBC' on the Blackmagic is BS, right?

4) if you were stranded on a desert island, w/ only a powerful computer, good cables, a good VHS deck, and your priceless VHS tapes to cap, what single capture card would you choose, and why? The screenshots of the weird "486i" bug on the Blackmagic 4k irritates me, and the AGC bug on the AVC500 (ATI Theater 750 family) of cards.

5) I'm going back and forth between budgeting this project. How much is too much? Idk. On the one hand, the best hardware in the world won't improve on VHS, and I have to live w/ that. On the other, I'm a bit anal about all this, and don't want to trust someone else (capturing house/3rd party) to do it for me. I'll lay awake at night wondering if they did proper de-interlacing, if there's dropped frames, if the gain could've been higher on the analogue signal, etc. Even if my most-trusted best friend was an experienced video editor, I guess I still want to do this myself.
^^^^I know you guys can't make that decision for me, but I was wondering if you had a little more data to share, that can help me decide.

Also, shoutout to Lordsmurf , (any tips appreciated sir!) who's name I remembered from the early 2000s when I was trying to capture laserdiscs to my ATI card

I appreciate your time and energy,
Much appreciated!

Last edited by bilbofett; 03-20-2016 at 09:21 PM. Reason: modify tags
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
03-20-2016, 09:47 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,614
Thanked 2,458 Times in 2,090 Posts
I'm not a Blackmagic fan, because there's been too many error reports from others. It was made for HD sources, and it seems that SD was an error-plagued afterthought for that device.

I'm not familiar with the VC500. I'd defer to msgohan/vaporeon on that one. He seems to like it, and his testing of cards seems accurate to me.

Read these:
- http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...e-610-usb.html
- http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...pture-from-VHS
- http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...BC-%28Nope!%29
- http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...on-screenshots

Regardless, the claimed "TBC" function of both cards is BS. You still need an external TBC, as those do nothing.

That old ATI AIW card of yours is probably still something to consider, if you have it.

Capture signals native. If you want to line-double it, do it post-capture with quality methods.

Even the best commercial (non-Macrovision'd) tapes, in the best S-VHS VCR with internal TBC (to clean the image), still having timing errors that trip up most all capturing devices. The external framesync TBC is to purify the signal, as needed for digitizing. There's no way around it, other than to capture a flawed signal (with often results in dropped frames).

I'd rather be stranded with a Playboy bunny. But if I was unfortunate enough to simply have a computer -- and solar-powered, I'm guessing -- then I'd always opt for a Windows XP SP2 system with an ATI AIW AGP or PCIe card. For SD sources, it's the best card. The deserted island has no internet, so I'd just need to computer for capturing anyway. If I was forced to use Windows 7, then I'd pick my trusty Tevion USB stick (AVI) or ATI 600 USB (MPEG or AVI).

I always say to budget $1k, and then hope to save from there. Hardware costs the most: TBC, S-VHS VCR, capture card.

I'm downsizing some of my hardware, and have some known-good AVT-8710's for sale, if interested. PM me if you want to buy one.

FYI: Proper deinterlace = QTGMC via Avisynth, using some of the switches, not a default slow setting. But even with a Skylake overclocked, it's about 8fps!

I'm still around, though mostly just at this site now.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: bilbofett (03-20-2016)
  #3  
03-20-2016, 10:11 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 58
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Wow quick reply brother Smurf of the Lords!

Thanks for the tip re: msgohan vaporeon , I've read the posts and hope there's a chime-in from that camp as well!
I think vaporeon did the post about the AGC bugs w/ the ATI (Diamond) cards

I don't have the old ATI 550 Theater PCI card anymore Lost it when I moved. Had some nice 3D comb filters, I've heard.. The VC500 is the Diamond OEM-rebrand of the ATI 750 Theater.. I was hoping its a newer, updated "worthy successor" to that awesome ATI card I had, and the latest model of the ATI 600 that comes highly rated here.

I forgot to say--I was tempted about the Blackmagic 4k so I'm "future proofed" and won't have to buy another 4k card later when/if I want to cap 4k (I have some amateur filmmaker friends who want to make movies). But if its crap for SD, and SD is my purpose now (need to be focused!), then I could even say "get a cheaper USB stick for SD now, cross that 4k-bridge when you come to it, later"

I'm sort-of interested in the ATI USB 600, but its old, no longer supported, and (because of Christmas) I'm on Win10 x64 Sorry!

What does QTGMC stand for? I'm familiar w/ Avisynth inverse-telecine/deinterlace methods, used to spend hours trying to get the best DG (Donald Graft) Decomb settings from my widescreen THE KEEP laserdisc!

I'm interested in the AVT-8710. I was afraid you'd say I'm just simply not doing best-effort on my project if I don't shell out for a TBC ;( If I have some macrovision'd tapes, will I be able to defeat that w/ a decent TBC?

Re: project price expectations.. you listed the TBC as more expensive than the S-VHS VCR, I checked out pricing on JVCs and Panasonics on tgrantphoto's site... they're asking $360-580 for VCRs ;(

http://www.tgrantphoto.com/sales/ind...s/new-products

P.S. God bless you re: accident and returning, you are like the Hugh Hefner of video-editing, we all consider you a mentor and appreciate the tips!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
03-20-2016, 11:10 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 58
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Sorry Lordsmurf,
I now understand that the ATI 600 and Diamond ATI 750 and Diamond VC500 are completely different chipsets.
ATI-750 purportedly does up to 720p (and 1080i?), and the VC500 is a simple USB device thats only SD.
I was confused.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
03-21-2016, 12:15 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
What does QTGMC stand for?
"Q" is for the Quick, improved version of the earlier "TGMB" (TempGausssMotionCompensated) deinterlacer and denoiser. I don't have a comparison video with older deinterlacers, but posted here is an Xvid avi with 4 sections using 4 deinterlace filters. The filters used are labeled at the top of each section. "TempGaussMC" is toward the right, between sections 2 and 4.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1458536513

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
I'm sort-of interested in the ATI USB 600, but its old, no longer supported, and (because of Christmas) I'm on Win10 x64 Sorry!
That's a shame. Looks like you're stuck with the Diamond, BlackMagic, or Canopus-DV. The 600 is still supported but not by Win10, which doesn't support much of anything and doesn't plan to.

That Win10 fact kinda makes moot the reply I was ready to post, but I'll post it anyway:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
I've asked a few guys in PM on other boards...
Why would you go to a public forum and ask those kinds of general questions only in PM, unless you don't want others to share in the answer or contribute their experience? Kidding aside, PM offers very limited views and resources, and a lot of b.s. + misinformation can be posted in PM without the author being corrected by one who knows better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
I don't have a bottomless fund to use.

I've read lots of posts here, and appreciate the time and thoughtfulness you've all put into them, particularly about Blackmagic's Intensity 4k and the Diamond VC500.

I'm going back and forth, minute-by-minute, between these 2 (still open to others).
Most members here can save you a lot of those trips with this advice: VHS via Black Magic doesn't look magic. AGC and timing issues aside, which are bad enough, after seeing hundreds of posted samples of BM VHS captures my take is that the color's wrong, the video looks weird, raw and sometimes plastic, and overall it just looks like too phony to worry with. BM users can disagree 24/7/365, but BM isn't optimal for analog tape capture. IMO the results show it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
1) Should I really believe that a $40 Diamond card can do analog-VHS capture as good as the $180 Blackmagic? People seem to make a huge difference between the PCI-E and USB versions of the Diamond? Is there really a difference now w/ the faster MOBOs/USB ports/CPUs?
Decent, workable captures aren't based on speed. The VC500 isn't that great but it gets better looking VHS captures than BM, all else being equal. The VC500 is more suitably optimized for digital-to-lossless capture. On the other hand, you don't have to believe years of experience from those who recommend against a particular device for VHS work. Use whatever you want. BM's advertising hype looks good and reads well. It's great marketing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
2) On *any* cap card I use, if my source is 525/625 NTSC/Pal, I absolutely cannot "line double" or cap it at 2x the input signal rez, correct? (I can read your mind..why would I want to?). Its kind of like "genclock" sync where I can never cap higher than the detected source signal?
You can capture at any size you want, but anything beyond 720x480 or 720x576 for VHS is a waste of time. At 720 width, VHS hits a bandwidth limit and won't give you any more detail. 720x480/576 Is a more workable dimension if DVD or standard definition BluRay/AVCHD is your target. If it isn't your target, use a VHS player's familiar 620x480 output. If you want HD frames, your best bet is not to use VHS to get HD -- only HD get can you HD. High definition is based on high resolution, not on low resolution blown up into big blurry frames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
3) If I have "clean", relatively low-played VHS tape sources that track well, and the player is decent (still looking between S-VHS JVC and S-VHS Panasonics, was a bit shocked to see how much I'm going to have to shell out), do I really need a full-frame TBC in-between? That 'built-in TBC' on the Blackmagic is BS, right?
Anything BM says about VHS capture is BS, IMO. Any other card that sez it has a frame tbc is smoking similar dope. If you run into audio sync and frame drop problems, you'll find that a frame tbc is essential, not an option. Capture devices don't see your tapes the way your TV does. The few DVDR pass-thru devices recommended have some level of frame sync activity, but won't remove copy protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
4) if you were stranded on a desert island, w/ only a powerful computer, good cables, a good VHS deck, and your priceless VHS tapes to cap, what single capture card would you choose, and why?
It takes more than just the card, and for "the best" (without spending more than 3 figures for the card alone) I'd have:
-ATI All In Wonder 7500 Radeon AGP, VirtualDUb capture, huffyuv or Lagarith lossless codecs.
-BlueJeanCables s-video and RG60 a/v cables where applicable.
-Windows XP Pro for a capture PC, Win 7Pro/Intel for SD and HD post-processing
-Panasonic AG-1980 + Panasonic PV-S4670 series for oddball tapes the AG1980 won't track, or vice versa.
-Avisynth + VirtualDub repair of VHS defects.
-AfterEffects Pro for common VHS severe contrast/color problems + time-line work with lossless media.
-HCenc or a semi-pro MainConcept encoding package for DVD and SD-BD/HD-BD MPEG encoding.
-X264 encoder or MainConcept semi-pro h.264 package for standard MPEG4/AVC encoding.
-TMPGenc Smart Renderer and TMPGenc Authoring Works for simple edits and authoring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
The screenshots of the weird "486i" bug on the Blackmagic 4k irritates me, and the AGC bug on the AVC500 (ATI Theater 750 family) of cards.
Videos look even worse than the screen shots. Don't confuse the ATI 750's with the ATI 600.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
5) I'm going back and forth between budgeting this project. How much is too much? Idk. On the one hand, the best hardware in the world won't improve on VHS,
Yes it will, if it's designed for analog capture work. The best isn't necessarily the most expensive. The best post-processing/repair tools are free, yet the worst repair tools cost a fortune. The rest of the magic comes with post-processing. The longer you wait, the more it will cost. The price of rebuilt AG-1980's has gone up about $135 during the past year. If any of your tapes are 6-hopur recordings, a JVC would be a poor choice. You'll be bet off with a pricey high-end player and another cheaper one in good shape that won't crap out on you with every 4th or 5th tape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
don't want to trust someone else (capturing house/3rd party) to do it for me. I'll lay awake at night wondering if they did proper de-interlacing, if there's dropped frames, if the gain could've been higher on the analogue signal, etc. Even if my most-trusted best friend was an experienced video editor, I guess I still want to do this myself.
If your best friend did indeed deinterlace his interlaced tapes, it's probably better to gently set that friendship aside and make a friend of someone who knows better than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
I appreciate your time and energy
We appreciate your visit to digitalfaq.


Attached Files
File Type: avi stockholm_4filter_Comparison_pan.avi (5.43 MB, 25 downloads)
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: bilbofett (03-22-2016), Killthewabbit (06-08-2016)
  #6  
03-21-2016, 12:28 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,614
Thanked 2,458 Times in 2,090 Posts
I almost never reply to anything tech related in a PM, on this site or elsewhere -- and (sort of) for the reasons sanlyn states. I don't like to be wrong or outdated, but it can happen, and it's good to get corrections/updates at times. To me, private messaging is for truly private matters (business, personal).

I'm fine with cheap/free cables. It's hard to screw up s-video, and audio is often fine. It's HDMI, coax, component and composite (video only) where cable quality matters. My best cables come from Monoprice, or came new for free with a new JVC VCR or DataVideo TBC.

Yep, ATI 750, ATI 600 USB, ATI 600 PCI, and VC500 are all different cards. And none of my top preference.

The ATI 600 USB works in Vista and 7. I need to try it with my 8.1 tablet sometime. It may work there, and may even Win10. But you have to force the drivers, as it's only officially Vista compatible.

Is "bilbofett" supposed to be a short furry-footed bounty hunter.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #7  
03-21-2016, 03:02 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 58
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
@ lordsmurf:
I've been using monoprice for awhile now, 99% excellent performance/service. It's actually cheaper for me to use their next-day shipping because they're only 1-hour away from me.

"ATI 750, ATI 600 USB, ATI 600 PCI, and VC500 are all different cards. And none of my top preference"
What are your top preference(s)?
Yes, I'm a furry-footed bounty hunter
Reply With Quote
  #8  
03-21-2016, 05:23 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 3,284
Thanked 540 Times in 499 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
then I'd pick my trusty Tevion USB stick (AVI) or ATI 600 USB (MPEG or AVI).
Sorry I don't mean to hijack the thread I think the OP would like to know as well. Do they make a stripped down version of the 600 stick without TV tuner? And is capturing uncompressed with the card doesn't require high speed port such as USB 3.0?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
03-22-2016, 02:11 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,614
Thanked 2,458 Times in 2,090 Posts
About 8 years ago, when shopping at Aldi, I came across a cheap $25 capture sick. Back then, I was still heavy into testing hardware, especially since the ATI AIW line was discontinued, and Vista was the new OS. It worked quite well, for AVI only, and in XP and Vista (and later 7).

No, they don't make an ATI 600 without tuner. But I don't see why it matters, as I've never used the tuner.

My top preference is, and probably always will be, the ATI AIW Radeon cards. However, I am quite fond of the Matrox and Canopis NLE cards of the time, as those has hardware MPEG and DV encoding, with both Mac and Windows models. The ATI 600 and Tevion are mostly for on-the-go work, when a laptop is needed -- which I don't really do anymore, post 2012.

USB2 can carry a lossless signal without drops, so USB3 doesn't do anything. True uncompressed external probably still needs SDI.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: bilbofett (03-22-2016)
  #10  
03-22-2016, 03:40 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,157
Thanked 359 Times in 294 Posts
USB 3.0 can handle uncompressed HD video without a problem. You can thank the video game crowd for that as those hardware compression cards require proprietary capture tools that don't work with DirectShow broadcasting tools they all use for their "let's play" videos. The problem is they still screw up analog signals, even the HD component capture. The Micomsoft X-CAPTURE-1 and its Startech cousin have been plagued with driver woes since they were released, and the target market for the X-CAPTURE-1 is SD analog video!

Its a shame because Micomsoft has an excellent range of digitizer/upscalers that they could base a capture card of their own design on. Instead they are sourcing capture solutions from Yuan who apparently can't write a capture driver worth a damn.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank NJRoadfan for this useful post: bilbofett (03-22-2016)
  #11  
03-22-2016, 03:40 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 3,284
Thanked 540 Times in 499 Posts
No wonder why SDI USB dongles are USB 3.0
Reply With Quote
  #12  
03-23-2016, 01:01 AM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 58
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
A little more info: I want to capture uncompressed 4:2:2 10-bit NTSC and possibly PAL.
I do not want a DV or MPEG2 card.
4k/HD on the card are ok, but it seems those manufacturers neglect the SD inputs?

So the cards recommended in this thread seem to be:
ATI 600 USB
ATI AIW (AGP only version?)
Diamond VC500 USB
And no one likes the BM cards.
Part of me is tempted to do a dual-boot and install XP-SP3 (x64?) and hope an older card will work w/ my 2016 motherboard :/

Sanlyn thank you for your responses and the video sample! The "TempGaussMC" example does indeed look great compared to the others.
Although I'm not sure why you and lordsmurf are discussing QTGMC for VHS cap when you said:
"If your best friend did indeed deinterlace his interlaced tapes, it's probably better to gently set that friendship aside".
??
I think I understand it, but am still missing something. NTSC VHS was created as true interlace, so *ANY* deinterlacing is removing resolution, no matter what? (since the source signal was never progressive, like a DVD?). So, we should NEVER deinterlace? Let the TV do that? Making a real "progressive" DVD from VHS is impossible?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
03-23-2016, 01:28 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,323
Thanked 334 Times in 276 Posts
I don't think you really want to capture 10-bit. If you were advanced enough to be able to work with it, you would already know that none of the devices mentioned so far except for the Blackmagic can capture it.

Consumer devices won't capture 10-bit, standard workflows can't be used, almost no one has a 10-bit display, and you will need a PC to play it back. Even Ultra HD Blu-ray doesn't support 10-bit SD.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank msgohan for this useful post: bilbofett (03-23-2016)
  #14  
03-23-2016, 01:44 AM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 58
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
msgohan I'm stuck on the 10-bit video thing because I learned alot on the audio side of things about dithering, nyquist, and editing in maximum bit-depth for audio files, and it makes a difference, even if your final file saved is lower quality.
Ie., a 24-bit recorded audio file later saved to a 16-bit file will sound better than if you just edited and saved it in 16-bit, due to dithering, and other quality preservation in the DAW. Less "damage" is done if you process it in a higher-bit depth, even if the originally created file was lower bit-depth.
I also believe an audio recording made at 88.2 Khz and then later saved to 44.1 Khz (or 96Khz > 48Khz) will retain more 'quality' than if just originally recorded/edited/processed in the same as the final saved format.
Its not about making something "better", because that's impossible. It's the law of diminishing returns. The idea is to retain the most amount of quality/do the least amount of damage.

I proved this to myself (and many friends) when I mixed/mastered my own band's music album years ago.

I know that's going off on a tangent, but I believe this same principle applies to video as well?

Capture 10-bit, edit/process in 10-bit, and it will look subjectively "better" (less artifacts, etc) even when saved to 8-bit, than if you just capped/processed/saved all in 8-bit.

I believe this was also (albeit *some* hype and marketing BS) what was behind those Sony "Superbit" DVDs, and the newer "mastered in 4k" blu-rays they did for Leon, Bram Stoker's Dracula, and Fifth Element. The reviews of those new discs def. showed the image looked better than the masters struck for the older Blurays. More shadow detail, better colors, less artifacting, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
03-23-2016, 01:44 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,614
Thanked 2,458 Times in 2,090 Posts
Video is complicated. So conversation can take a while to fully sink in.

All ATI All-In-Wonder (AIW) Radeon cards are fine -- PCI, AGP, PCIe. But the AGP cards tend to act the best on the widest array of systems. Other cards can be a bit more picky. Though some 9000 AGP cards can have issues as well. Essentially, nothing is perfect. It can take some trial to get a good capture system up.

Never deinterlace your master of interlaced footage...

On related topic: Some keep large Huffyuv AVI files, but I tend to keep large 15mpbs MPEG files as masters. I only use Huffyuv for advanced editing or restoring. If the project is long-term, then my long-term master is Huffyuv.

... but you can deinterlace a copy used for something else. For example, Youtube, home HTPC over LAN, etc. Generally, we're talking MP4 files for streaming use, to be seen on progressive devices (aka computer monitor, tablet, phone). There's almost zero legit reason to deinterlace otherwise.

Some types of restoration require deinterlace. That's an advanced topic for another day, I'm sure.

"Real" progressive DVD for interlaced source is not possible, no. You can fake it, but you lose resolution from deinterlace. Some advanced QTGMC use can come close to lossless deinterlace, however. But even that depends on source quality. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, and it again takes trial.

Is it all clear as mud yet?

Edit:

No, the whole "10-bit scaled to 8-bit" thing honestly does not apply to video like you're thinking. That is a huge can of worms, and in the end you'll have little, nothing, or a negative to show for it. Even with audio, the entire 96kHz vs. 48kHz is more a statement about the hardware than the kHz of the audio file.

You can make video better than the source. I do it all the time, and have for years. It's the main reason this site was started.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: bilbofett (03-23-2016)
  #16  
03-23-2016, 02:13 AM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 58
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
lordsmurf (or anyone else), thoughts on these cards?

ATI 100-715331 TV Wonder 650 PCI
Diamond AIWHD3650 All-in-Wonder ATI Radeon HD 3650 PCIE
MSI Video Theater 650PRO (ATI) PCI-Express
*Oem* Ati Tv Wonder 650 Pcie "System Builder" Tv Wonder

And am I right in assuming this was ATI Theater chipset history?
550 (last SD-only model?)
600 (lordsmurf favorite!)
650
750 (current)?

I believe this is the card I used to own:
https://www.msi.com/product/multimed...#hero-overview
I captured uncompressed AVI, HuffYUV, 720x480 NTSC using Vdub from laserdisc.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
03-23-2016, 04:47 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,323
Thanked 334 Times in 276 Posts
^ All of those with 650 in the name will be the same, except for the PCI vs PCIe interface difference. The 650 has AGC pumping, shown again and again.

The favored 600 USB does not use the Theater chip (T506) that's used by the 600 PCI. The 600 USB uses a Texas Instruments ADC.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...tween-pci.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
Capture 10-bit, edit/process in 10-bit, and it will look subjectively "better" (less artifacts, etc) even when saved to 8-bit, than if you just capped/processed/saved all in 8-bit.
Even with an 8-bit capture you can do processing in 16-bit and dither back down (SmoothLevels, for one).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Some advanced QTGMC use can come close to lossless deinterlace, however. But even that depends on source quality. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, and it again takes trial.
QTGMC has a 100% bit-for-bit lossless mode (meaning the original fields still exist in the double-rate output video, unlike its default mode where the original fields are motion-compensated). The trouble is, quality is worse in this mode (fine details bob up/down more).
Reply With Quote
The following users thank msgohan for this useful post: bilbofett (03-23-2016), lordsmurf (03-27-2016)
  #18  
03-23-2016, 09:29 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Deinterlacing has reared its ugly head. Let's get it out of the way for the time being, since it's more a subject for restoration than capture. You might or might not know some of what follows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
Sanlyn thank you for your responses and the video sample! The "TempGaussMC" example does indeed look great compared to the others.
Although I'm not sure why you and lordsmurf are discussing QTGMC for VHS cap when you said:
"If your best friend did indeed deinterlace his interlaced tapes, it's probably better to gently set that friendship aside".
??
I think I understand it, but am still missing something. NTSC VHS was created as true interlace, so *ANY* deinterlacing is removing resolution, no matter what? (since the source signal was never progressive, like a DVD?).
We're talking about post processing, not capture. But you'd be surpirsed at how often many users deinterlace automatically, for no reason other than that they don't realize what they're doing. There are capture devices that deinterlace during capture. The results are less than desirable, often disastrous.

QTGMC is an improved, enhanced and faster version of TempGaussMC. QTGMC is sometimes used on progressive video for repair of serious defects, especially defects involving sloppy deinterlace. Deinterlacing affects detail more than resolution. As lordsmurf noted, in some cases noise and other defects are such that they can be cleaned up only by deinterlacing. For most standard output formats, the results are re-interlaced in Avisynth. For users optimistic enough to want to resize video, video must be deinterlaced for resizing. No, the re-interlaced video will not "look like" the original exactly; often there's a noticeable loss of detail, even if minor -- like all post processing, it's a compromise between living with lots of defects or living with less. Some denoisers don't require deinterlace, some can be effective by separating interlaced fields and reweaving them later. QTGMC isn't the only method for interlace cleanup. Avisynth has at least a dozen plugins that address different factors.

QTGMC is often used to correct bad interlacing and/or de-interlacing, or oddball tricks that blend or duplicate frames and other nonsense or all sorts of foolish processing that requires something like QTGMC and additional filters that correct the damage, although it's often impossible. Fortunately original VHS tapes don't often have those problems, though I've encountered some retail tapes and recorded TV shows that went through some very goofy lab work. I encountered a posted capture that had silly defects like segments where interlaced fields were reversed or showed up 2 or 3 fields later in a different frame! (Avisynth, QTGMC and other plugins were required to straighten that one out and move fields to where they were supposed to be).

Motion picture films and animation are created as progressive. To attain proper playback speed they are usually telecined. If you recorded some old Columbo or similar TV shows, run them through VirtualDub frame by frame and you'll see that they're progressive+telecine, not interlaced. Sometimes other methods of duplicating certain frames and interlacing them with other frames are used. These sources must be either inverse telecined (using Avisynth's TIVTC) or deinterlaced and Avisynth filters are used to remove duplicate frames. This is done to clean up sloppy combing and blending effects. The results will also attempt to restore the original frame rate, which for movies and filmed TV shows would usually be 23.976. Once the damage is fixed, these sources are re-telecined during encoding for output formats requiring it.

Standard definition DVD and SD BuRay/AVCHD are either interlaced or telecined. This is a matter of meeting worldwide standards and to provide what most playback systems are designed to "expect". HD output formats that require interlaced or telecined video are 1920x1080 and 1440x1080 BluRay/AVCHD @29.97 or 25fps. Those two formats can be progressive only at film speeds of 23.976 or 24fps. 1280x720 HD is progressive double frame rates (60 or 50fps) or film speed only. A basic list of format requirements for SD and HD BluRay video is at http://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech. A table of more detailed requirements for encoding BluRay with MPEG or h264/AVC, such as required GOP size, bitrates, etc., is at http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533.

I advise that if you're tempted to upscale SD video from VHS, you'll be disappointed if not horrified by the results and by the effort and expertise involved to get big frames from low resolution sources. You'd still have low definition in a bigger frame, with upscaling defects to boot.

Yes, it is possible to create a progressive video from VHS. It's done for web posting. Today some sites like UTube accept 50 or 60 fps deinterlaced video. But note that you can't make DVD or SD BLuRay from those videos. You can deinterlace and then discard alternate frames to get 29.97 or 25fps progressive, but that throws away 50% of your temporal resolution (motion) and looks pretty clunky with judder and other problems. Many authoring programs won't accept that video without re-encoding it as interlaced. You can fake it all kinds of ways for DVD or BluRay. But note that interlaced video shows 60 frames per second (a new image is displayed every 1/60 sec) but progressive 30fps video shows the same image for twice that time, affecting motion smoothness. Silent movies use all kinds of tricks to get 16, 18, or 20 fps film up to speed. Often those methods are simply damaged by trying to "fix" them, which isn't always possible.

Other than cleanup, users deinterlace video because their editing apps don't deinterlace the preview image. That's not a good reason for diminishing your video unless PC playback is all you want. PC media players handle interlace and telecine as well as a TV or set top player does. Some software and hardware are better at it than others. In that case blame the player or TV, not the video.

I've gone through plenty of godawful tapes that didn't require deinterlace for cleanup. The rule is, if it ain't broke don't fix it. With even the best deinterlace methods, something is always lost whether a little or a lot. With lesser methods, video is all but borked.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: bilbofett (03-23-2016)
  #19  
03-27-2016, 02:28 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,614
Thanked 2,458 Times in 2,090 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
The 600 USB uses a Texas Instruments ADC.
Did you rip apart the stick casing? I've never wanted to do it, as I only have one.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: bilbofett (04-03-2016)
  #20  
04-03-2016, 11:32 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,323
Thanked 334 Times in 276 Posts
No, but some Linux guy(s) did. Chip list + photos.

I guess bilbofett gave up...?
Reply With Quote
The following users thank msgohan for this useful post: bilbofett (04-03-2016)
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advice for converting VHS-C tapes, Panasonic vs. JVC VCRs? Tomas84 Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 27 02-08-2018 09:12 PM
Need Advice Please; Shopping for AIW Cards rocko Capture, Record, Transfer 3 06-23-2011 01:57 AM
Do ATI All In Wonder cards or ATI TV 600/650 cards capture both PAL and NTSC video? kpmedia Capture, Record, Transfer 0 06-16-2011 05:44 PM
Sage TV JonathanEntertainment Capture, Record, Transfer 3 02-24-2008 10:45 AM
Pulling shows off JVC DVD Recorder Tom_n_Jonna Capture, Record, Transfer 6 09-26-2005 07:32 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:07 AM