Actual profesional capture cards? (AJA, Matrox)

[Eric-Jan]

The only thing i could find about it that, when mixing different video footage, there could be a problem,
or the difference how a computer handles color, and converting to HDMI looses a "bit" and difference between YUV and RGB, but like you said most of the time one would not have the equipment to compare, and i see no real problem in such a Minute difference.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Everything can be corrected at the software level, But at a cost of quality.

Not everything. If only if could be. But many.

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The only way to be able to see the difference is using a calibrated studio monitor and feed it with two files, one from a quality capture workflow that follows the standard.

Not "the only", but certainly the most stark and obvious. TVs/HDTVs still show many issues, even poorly calibrated ones. The real problem for "not seeing" errors is on computer monitors, especially anything small or shiny, and the tiny capture preview windows that's smaller than a cell phone. You can't see anything that way, and miss all the flaws.

Quote:

and another from a crappy chinese analog to HDMI adapter and a crappy chinese HDMI to USB and toggle between the two sources, then you will notice the difference.

That and others. Some cards just outright look like sh!t when capturing, and even grandmas notice. The real problem with "not noticing" is purchase bias ("I bought it, so it must be good!" or the lame excuse "Good enough!"). Willful ignorance is bliss?

Quote:

The only part that you may not notice a huge difference and I know some have already disagreed with me is at the very end during upscaling from SD to HD and encoding when converting from 609 to 709, There is a slight color shift, But that assuming the video has been properly captured first in rec.609.

I'm not one of them.
Encoding and restoration has loss in this way, and sometimes it cannot be avoided. So a goal is to capture properly, as bad captures are far worse, and rather than being "colorspace changes/shifts" are now instead obvious "molested colors". The key is drawing a line, without being a junk apologist.

Eric-Jan has too often been in the low-quality camp, but has moderated some, so that's a good shift in understanding. Education will hopefully eventually bring him around to a quality mindset. When he has questions, I try to answer. When info isn't quite right, I interject if needed.

[Eric-Jan]

well yes, i want to learn, but i only am satisfied when i see a good explenation, otherwise it's only hot air to me,
i see too many answers where a lot of info is missing, but that's both in questions and answers.
I guess it's also hard to have any good refference to measure quality on analog video, and in what "stage" an error occurs, this could be already in the analog recording. only with digital video, refference "points" can be found, but says nothing of the analog part except skin tones…

but… i guess there are two camps, one is: only the best is good enough, and the other is, this is good enough, there lies the difference, between many people, but i see just too many negative things pointed out, and only few positive ones, that's very discouraging when people need help, with what they have to do the job.

[srmusico]

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Once you have a stable video signal, have a good analog to SDI/HDMI converter, and go for a SDI/HDMI recorder, or a non consumer SDI/HDMI recording card/device for your PC/Mac,

Better than directly connect analog outputs to analog inputs of your AJA Card?
What is the advantage of convert to SDI the signal?

Quote:

What exactly are you referring to with "all them are apparently more or less the same"?
- Quality items are rarely the same.
- Consumer stuff, most of it junk, does tend to perform the same (because it often is the same, aka rebadges).

Im referring about the final capture quality comparing some Matrox vs AJA vs ATi vs other recommended hardware.
Why if for example, an AJA card that second hand is aprox 50-100$ who works with modern OS Systems is "less chosen" than an old ATI .

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It's not more stable. This is the main reason it is infamous for SD and consumer sources.

Yes, sorry, I expressed myself badly hahaha.
As capturing SD have a lot of drop frames, problems showing some VHS Menus, colors,....

What i try to say , is about their good driver and easy integration. BlackMagic have been updating their stuff driver for years.
their Intensity Pro device is from 2009 and is compatible latest Windows and Mac OS. (like RME devices in Audio World).
In the other hand, AJA and Matrox have really bad support developing drivers for their old devices....


Thanks for all your info and time!


BTW. I have bought an AJA Kona LHi + Breakbox + Cables .

Let me upload a comparison . Same conditions AJA Kona LHi vs Black Magic Intensity Pro.
(compressed to h264 with same prefs. from Pro Res 422 hq)

(Black Magic have also higher input gain dbs and non 4k model like mine, don't have any control panel where you can adjust your inputgain to avoid saturation. is time to say bye to Black Magic haha)

[Hushpower]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Jan

but… i guess there are two camps, one is: only the best is good enough, and the other is, this is good enough, there lies the difference, between many people, but i see just too many negative things pointed out, and only few positive ones, that's very discouraging when people need help, with what they have to do the job.

I agree, Eric.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmusico

Better than directly connect analog outputs to analog inputs of your AJA Card?
What is the advantage of convert to SDI the signal?

Aja card does not have TBC, So if a better device is used and is built in TBC, the Aja becomes a digital interface, kind of like a firewire card for DV AVI, but SDI is a lossless digital port for lossless AVI.

[srmusico]

Ohh.
What im trying at this moment to get an stable signal (AJA seems to have problems with non profesional devices signals)
is to passhtru into my Panasonic ES10, bypassing Philips VR 20D TBC and using Panasonic ES10 Pal TBC instead of the ones from VCR.
Works perfectly , but seems to have an audio delay problem...
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr...-dmr-es10.html

[dpalomaki]

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Black Magic have also higher input gain dbs and non 4k model like mine, don't have any control panel where you can adjust your input gain to avoid saturation.

Did I missing something? BM Desktop Video Setup does allow adjustment of Y and C level on analog video input with the Intensity Pro as it does with the 4k version. But not with HDMI input. (One can also adjust the audio gain.)

An issue with any "broadcast professional" class gear is its ability to deal with the variations in consumer analog video sources that are not found in well-adjusted "broadcast professional" sources.

Video capture device debate brings to mind the old party saying from my youth; "go ugly early and you never go home alone." In video terms settling for a lesser result may get the job done sooner and allow you to move on to some other project that may be more to your liking. But it is probably unwise to settle for less if you have nothing higher priority waiting your attention.

What is Rec 609? As I understand it REC (BT) 601 is the standard for digital SD (525 an 625 line) while REC (BT) 709 is for HD (720p and above). Some people no doubt have perfect vision (like perfect pitch) and can see the difference without a side-by-side comparison.

[latreche34]

Was that me that wrote 609? I think it was a brain fart.

[srmusico]

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Did I missing something?

Yes, im talking about Audio Dbs Gain, not video

Audio control panel only appears in the 4K model.

[Eric-Jan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmusico

Yes, im talking about Audio Dbs Gain, not video

Audio control panel only appears in the 4K model.

Using PAL in Spain ? IRE should be 0.0 in that case…. NTSC uses 7.5

[srmusico]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

Using PAL in Spain ? IRE should be 0.0 in that case…. NTSC uses 7.5

Hi! What is IRE? in Desktop Video Setup appears like 7.5
I never have touched that haha

[Eric-Jan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmusico

Hi! What is IRE? in Desktop Video Setup appears like 7.5
I never have touched that haha

It's about black level, it's in your attached picture, but my guess now is, IRE only set in this case when NTSC is used, because there's a difference for Japan and the USA, and PAL will be set as 0.0 and the NTSC IRE setting will have no effect when in PAL mode.
So good on screen text reading is still needed

[Robinthehood]

I like my Blackmagic Intensity Pro so much I have two, each to their own but they work fine for me.

[dpalomaki]

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I like my Blackmagic Intensity Pro so much I have two, each to their own but they work fine for me.

Be aware that unless BMDD has slipped a significant production variation in the later production IP4K, it does an extremely poor job capturing Component NTSC SD.

[Eric-Jan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

Be aware that unless BMDD has slipped a significant production variation in the later production IP4K, it does an extremely poor job capturing Component NTSC SD.

What is your source for this ? otherwise it's just BS…….. link or proof for this ! or does NTSC has this effect on every capture device ?

[dpalomaki]

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What is your source for this ? otherwise it's just BS…

Nice talk! I suggest that you should be sure of your facts before you accuse others of organically fertilizing the forum.

The source is tests I personally performed about 5 years ago feeding SMPTE color bars to an Intensity Pro and an Intensity Pro 4K, viewing the capture results on a monitor and with a vector scope. I captured HDMI, composite, s-video, and component bars. I did both 1080i HD and NTSC SD.

The original Intensity Pro did OK. The Intensity pro 4K drew a vacuum on component inputs. Levels were way off, so far as to be unusable for most purposes.

BMD did acknowledge the problem but intimated (to another competent tech support/editor at the Grass Valley forums) that they had no plan to fix it. Apparently it was a hardware problem that could not be addressed with a firmware update, and given the small demand and high cost for a fix owners were stuck with it.

Try it yourself if you doubt.

[Robinthehood]

What's SMPTE color bars and a vector scope and why would I need them? I have a colour bar generator somewhere is that the same as SMPTE colour bars?

[dpalomaki]

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What's SMPTE color bars and a vector scope and why would I need them? I have a colour bar generator somewhere is that the same as SMPTE colour bars?

- SMPTE is Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers, among other things they are a standards organization. One of their standards were set of color bars at specific level and hues. Google "SMPTE color bars" for examples. Google "SMPTE" for more on the organization if that interests you.

- Historically bars (and tone) were used to calibrate and check calibration/performance of analog video systems to ensure consistent, within specification, performance. They were especially useful for setting up monitors to ensure proper display of colors (the so called "PLUGE" pattern)..

- A vector scope is a special type of oscilloscope that enable examination of the video signal component levels and phase.

- Often bars and tone were recorded at the start of a tape as a reference. This helped ensure the information in the tape interpreted correctly by the viewing system; i.e., that it got the colors right. (This might include tweaking the signal brightness, contrast, hue, and saturation before broadcast or duplication.)

- Not all sources of color bars are the same as SMPTE bars. The levels and content may be different. You would have to check the specifications of your source and whether or not it is in calibration. A vector scope can be used for this purpose (if it is in calibration as well).

- Most people do not need a vector scope, but serious video editors, video engineers, and geeky enthusiasts will likely find one useful. A good one is not cheap. Many NLEs include a vector scope-like display.

[Robinthehood]

This all seems totally out of my budget, I just transfer tapes to the best of my ability for people who can't afford a TV studio type transfer for videos that are not likely to be used in any film and even if they were wouldn't any small colour/tone discrepancies be picked up by some sort of post editing by whoever wanted to use the film? Or should I go out and get these things bearing in mind for me it's a hobby /social enterprise not a business?