#21  
04-28-2023, 06:46 PM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 673
Thanked 184 Times in 161 Posts
Quote:
so if the hypothesis is valid for x700* is should hold for x850
Correct. It is just a hypothesis for the x700 as well, until we do not see an evidence of it with a real captured video with T.B.C/N.R on and T.B.C/N.R off (I do not own one of these machines, so I cannot help, sorry)

A channel on S-VHS / VHS capture and AviSynth restoration https://bit.ly/3mHWbkN
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lollo2 for this useful post: mbassiouny (04-28-2023)
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #22  
04-28-2023, 06:51 PM
mbassiouny mbassiouny is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 247
Thanked 30 Times in 29 Posts
No need to apologize, I will try to get my hands on one of these and prove the hypothesis with more rigorous testing, (unless
Robinthehood or someone else beats me to it). I have a couple of SECAM tapes that will surely show if the TBC is active or not. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
The following users thank mbassiouny for this useful post: lollo2 (04-28-2023), Robinthehood (04-29-2023)
  #23  
04-29-2023, 05:28 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,649
Thanked 439 Times in 377 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
Just read message #12 very closely, SECAM = MESECAM on tape
view also attached picture in message #16
No. There are 2 different types of SECAM format on tapes, french/proper secam used in france and MESECAM used elsewhere where SECAM was used. The output from them is both SECAM but the way they're recorded differs a bit. Recordings in SECAM were obviously common where SECAM was used, not common elsewhere.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
04-29-2023, 06:03 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 2,967
Thanked 500 Times in 462 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
Like said, SECAM is not stored on the tape
That VCR does not support native French SECAM, I have two of them, The MS version supports SECAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
True SECAM was rarely recorded direct on VHS…. the tuner is SECAM but the recording the VCR makes is mostly in MESECAM.
camcorders is a different story for SECAM, you have to do specific research for any model is my guess.
Do your homework before making wrong guesses, This is nonsense.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
04-29-2023, 01:25 PM
Robinthehood Robinthehood is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 24
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbassiouny View Post
No need to apologize, I will try to get my hands on one of these and prove the hypothesis with more rigorous testing, (unless
Robinthehood or someone else beats me to it). I have a couple of SECAM tapes that will surely show if the TBC is active or not. Thanks!
I'm happy to do some tests with Secam tapes and my 9700MS... I'm actually very interested in the Secam format as my transfers are very poor compared to Pal/Ntsc
And as to your earlier question... Robin.the.hood.. Robin(the)Hood... Rob.in.the.hood... I like to amuse myself playing with words... Childish I know!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
04-29-2023, 01:33 PM
mbassiouny mbassiouny is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 247
Thanked 30 Times in 29 Posts
Childish? not at all, usernames have to be unique and amusing, I was just curious how you came up with it.

Would be great if you have time and are willing to post in a separate thread few samples of captures with TBC on/off for secam tapes.

Feel free to pm me if you need to at any time!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
04-29-2023, 02:23 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,894
Thanked 2,350 Times in 2,004 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinthehood View Post
I like to amuse myself playing with words...

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: Robinthehood (04-29-2023)
  #28  
04-30-2023, 03:25 AM
Robinthehood Robinthehood is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 24
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Or according to Tom Tom Club.... "Words are trouble, words are subtle"
Reply With Quote
  #29  
04-30-2023, 06:55 AM
mbassiouny mbassiouny is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 247
Thanked 30 Times in 29 Posts
@lollo2 and @Robinthehood

I just checked the manual of the 9700EU.
Attached in the post also available on:
https://data2.manualslib.com/pdf/9/8...72ee686f162602


And I *guess I* know exactly what happened in the French manual of the 9700MS.

Quote:
● When playing back a MESECAM tape, Digital TBC/NR does not function even though the DIGITAL TBC/NR indicator is lit
They probably blindly translated this sentence without thinking about the SECAM that is added in the MS variant.

I would be very amazed if they developed a new feature for a format after it died, in a VCR that came out towards the end of the VHS and VCRs era.


Attached Files
File Type: pdf hrs9700eu.pdf (4.59 MB, 2 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #30  
04-30-2023, 08:30 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 673
Thanked 184 Times in 161 Posts
Yes, that's what probably happened. My and others hope was that in the manual of the HR-S9500MS there is explicitely written "Reading a SECAM or MESECAM tape, DIGITAL T.B.C./N.R is not active even if the button is lighted".

Cattura.PNG

On the 9700 manual the name SECAM disappeared and only MESECAM remained.

You must be logged in to view this content; either login or register for the forum. The attached screen shots, before/after images, photos and graphics are created/posted for the benefit of site members. And you are invited to join our digital media community.


Only a real test on the field can dissipate our speculations



A channel on S-VHS / VHS capture and AviSynth restoration https://bit.ly/3mHWbkN
Reply With Quote
  #31  
04-30-2023, 12:00 PM
themaster1 themaster1 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: France
Posts: 425
Thanked 89 Times in 74 Posts
Mesecam and secam are 2 differents standard anyway.Maybe a translation error or maybe not.It would be the first vcr i'd see that support secam on the tbc end. We're waiting for your thorough tests
Reply With Quote
  #32  
04-30-2023, 01:48 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 2,967
Thanked 500 Times in 462 Posts
Given the complicated nature of chroma encoding/de-coding in the SECAM/MESECAM standard, it could be that they decided it is not worth passing the signal into a TBC/DNR, may be the losses and complexity of design from decoding -> converting to digital -> processing -> converting to analog -> encoding the chroma is not worth the effort.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
Reply With Quote
  #33  
04-30-2023, 07:08 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,649
Thanked 439 Times in 377 Posts
The signal is standard Y/C at the point where it gets to the TBC/DNR in these JVCs, so it would be a little odd for the TBC/DNR to only be active on one of MESECAM and SECAM tapes since the format would be the same at this stage (unless it would be due to MESECAM being more degraded causing the TBC to be unable to handle it or something.)

It would require a bunch of extra logic for the TBC to handle SECAM though yeah which would only have much value in a very limited marked compared to NTSC/PAL. That's also kinda the reason MESECAM was a thing, as it reused most of the PAL circuitry while the full SECAM tape variant used in France always needed one or more separate ICs.

My Video gear overview/test/repair/stuff yt channel http://youtu.be/cEyfegqQ9TU
Reply With Quote
  #34  
05-01-2023, 02:07 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 2,967
Thanked 500 Times in 462 Posts
What do you mean by "the format will be the same"? Unless it's decoded first into YUV and then digitized by the TBC's ADC, it is not the same, as I mentioned above SECAM chroma decoding and encoding is complicated, And if there is no chroma decoder for that format the TBC has to be set to off by design when SECAM/MESECAM is detected, Or at least that's the theory if indeed there is no TBC availability for SECAM, I don't own a machine so I can't be certain, I just go by what the members report.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
Reply With Quote
  #35  
05-01-2023, 04:41 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,649
Thanked 439 Times in 377 Posts
I mean the signal at that stage would be the same format between MESECAM and SECAM playback. PAL and NTSC tapes would be different of course.

My Video gear overview/test/repair/stuff yt channel http://youtu.be/cEyfegqQ9TU
Reply With Quote
  #36  
05-01-2023, 05:09 AM
Robinthehood Robinthehood is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 24
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Here's a link to two 30 second files.... Maybe someone can see a difference?
VHSC Secam tape recorded in 1992
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...usp=share_link
Reply With Quote
The following users thank Robinthehood for this useful post: lollo2 (05-01-2023), mbassiouny (05-01-2023)
  #37  
05-01-2023, 06:49 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 673
Thanked 184 Times in 161 Posts
I see not much difference. There are some, but may be related to different captures at different times, and/or some N.R. active or not:

comp.mp4

https://imgsli.com/MTc0OTk3

As oln and latreche34 pointed out, being the nature of SECAM and MESECAM different than PAL/NTSC, but very similar between them, it is highly unlikely that JVC, at some point in time, implemented the TBC for SECAM and not for MESECAM.
Strangely SECAM beeing not supported for TBC operations disappeared in 9700 documentation compared to 9500, but not MESECAM.
But you never know.

If you can provide a comparison including a video with evident straight vertical lines it will be easier to compare the TBC effect, if present.


Reply With Quote
  #38  
05-01-2023, 07:36 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,649
Thanked 439 Times in 377 Posts
Should be pretty easy to see if anything happens if press the TBC/DNR button, if the TBC is active you typically get a slight hiccup when it's activated. May also be harder/easier to see the difference depending on what is used for capture.

My Video gear overview/test/repair/stuff yt channel http://youtu.be/cEyfegqQ9TU
Reply With Quote
The following users thank hodgey for this useful post: lollo2 (05-01-2023)
  #39  
05-01-2023, 08:47 AM
mbassiouny mbassiouny is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 247
Thanked 30 Times in 29 Posts
Quote:
If you can provide a comparison including a video with evident straight vertical lines it will be easier to compare the TBC effect, if present.
+1, this is what I told him via PM, observing correction on such a scenario is the most evident way to tell for sure. But how to fabricate such test conditions if you don't happen to have a tape that fits the description already?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Should be pretty easy to see if anything happens if press the TBC/DNR button, if the TBC is active you typically get a slight hiccup when it's activated. May also be harder/easier to see the difference depending on what is used for capture.
If you allow me, I would say this is almost always not wrong, but sometimes it is not true (in my limited experience with my own VCRs and my own tapes), so I won't count on this as 100% proof, but it is an indicator.

+1, for the argument about secam/mesecam, you guys brought is a very good point, no reason to do it for secam but not mesecam. That makes me insist they just used the English 9700EU manual as a reference, added SECAM in input/output tables and forgot to add it like they used to in 9500/9600 manual for the TBC sentence.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
05-01-2023, 11:07 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 673
Thanked 184 Times in 161 Posts
Quote:
But how to fabricate such test conditions if you don't happen to have a tape that fits the description already?
Without a lineTBC most of the vertical and diagonal geometries will be distorted, so it is easy to find a significant pattern in many tapes.

If it can help, I have a "sort of demo" here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tec6g_Qjh1Q; if you are able to record that video on tape and capture with and without lineTBC you'll see the difference (the overall quality will be degradet, but it should be enough)
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best capture method for PAL, NTSC, upscale VHS? Gasmart81 Capture, Record, Transfer 3 12-24-2022 02:34 PM
VHS PAL-N to NTSC before capture? Saporo Capture, Record, Transfer 6 12-12-2019 07:07 PM
Video capture card that would capture all lines in NTSC? alltruefalse Capture, Record, Transfer 3 12-29-2018 01:48 AM
Capture NTSC with PAL equipment? RockCassette Capture, Record, Transfer 16 12-28-2018 09:51 PM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:19 AM