#1  
12-01-2024, 06:55 PM
electronsandstuff electronsandstuff is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2024
Posts: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hey folks, I am starting a digitization project and wanted to ask here if there are any drawbacks with using the SDI output from my Big Voodoo TBC10 for capture of an s-video feed.

I recently volunteered to digitize my family's collection of home videos shot on Hi8. I am picking them up over the holidays along with the camcorder they were originally shot on. My current plan is to take the camcorder (after cleaning the heads) and connect it to my TBC10 via s-video. Then, connect the TCB10's digital SDI output into a BlackMagic HyperDeck shuttle 2 capture device which can record uncompressed video from the SDI feed.

I have used this setup before for VHS capture and it seemed to work well, however this was a long time ago and I was less experienced then. My specific concern is whether interlacing is handled correctly in the SDI output from the TBC10. I can't find much detail about the SDI output format online and wanted to ask here since I expect it is one of the few places on the internet where others have experience with this device.
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
12-01-2024, 07:58 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 3,744
Thanked 650 Times in 597 Posts
Not sure about the TBC10, But converting analog video to digital was standardized when SDI (Wiki) was the only digital port around to carry it, This was in the 80's when Sony made the D1 format digital tape recorder, Consumer capture cards and devices had to wait another decade or more to join the club after DV and MPEG-2 compressions came out and the video quality was decent enough, capturing lossless had to wait probably another decade or so due to limited hard drive capacity.

As to the HyperDeck Shuttle 2, I've just started using one, check my latest threads to ease your pain, because I had to go through few hurdles, but working flawlessly now after figuring it all out, way better than computer capturing by the way in terms of issues.


-- merged --

Sorry I had completely forgotten that I was posting in this forum, my threads are over at videohelp, My brain farts are increasing.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
Reply With Quote
  #3  
12-21-2024, 11:00 PM
HiFiVideotape HiFiVideotape is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2024
Location: NTSC
Posts: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by electronsandstuff View Post
Hey folks, I am starting a digitization project and wanted to ask here if there are any drawbacks with using the SDI output from my Big Voodoo TBC10 for capture of an s-video feed.

I recently volunteered to digitize my family's collection of home videos shot on Hi8. I am picking them up over the holidays along with the camcorder they were originally shot on. My current plan is to take the camcorder (after cleaning the heads) and connect it to my TBC10 via s-video. Then, connect the TCB10's digital SDI output into a BlackMagic HyperDeck shuttle 2 capture device which can record uncompressed video from the SDI feed.

I have used this setup before for VHS capture and it seemed to work well, however this was a long time ago and I was less experienced then. My specific concern is whether interlacing is handled correctly in the SDI output from the TBC10. I can't find much detail about the SDI output format online and wanted to ask here since I expect it is one of the few places on the internet where others have experience with this device.
- Yes, it works perfectly going s-video in + SDI out
- Operation is exactly the same as when you did VHS
- Interlacing and everything else is handled correctly. It sends a perfect signal, and it's up to your capture hardware and software to properly save it.

Are you using the exact same TBC + capture workflow that you had previously used for the VHS captures?

Do it once. Do it right.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
12-22-2024, 10:33 AM
aramkolt aramkolt is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2023
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 784
Thanked 120 Times in 111 Posts
I've heard mixed reviews on the TBC10, but I am a fan of SDI capturing whenever possible for the reasons already mentioned. Basically, all TBCs convert the incoming video to a digital buffer and then output the frames at a digitally-precise rate, so when using SDI output from one, you skip the conversion back to analog and there are fewer analog to digital and digital to analog conversions in the chain, each of which has some opportunity for image loss.

Uncompressed and lossless are confusing terms though, a zip file that is compressed 5:1 (takes 1/5th of the space of the files in it) but then unzips to 1:1 is still "compressed" and ACTUALLY lossless. This is only possible because the starting files are digital. It technically isn't possible to have truly lossless digital to analog or analog to digital reproduction as there are infinite possibilities of analog values. In digital, everything is a 1 or a zero, but when you try to have that go to analog, there's always a transition period between the 1 and zero, hence no perfectly square waves from zero to 1 and one to zero. You could divide the horizontal resolution into however many pixels you want for even more resolution, but they settled on 720 as the standard, so that's what we use. Vertical resolution is fixed though since there's a fixed number of scan lines per frame/field.

When most people refer to lossless captures, they are doing it at 8 bit color which has far fewer possible pixel color assignments than 10 bit does. Humans can EASILY tell the difference between 8 and 10 bit color pallets in certain types of scenes, mainly ones with low dynamic range and with mostly one color like sky, sunsets, or dark scenes, you'll often notice "blocks" of solid colors without any variation where the values in that area all rounded to the same value in an 8 bit system, whereas in a 10 bit system, they wouldn't appear blocky.

This is an over-exaggeration (similar colors get rounded to the same value), but you get the idea:

Screenshot 2024-12-22 at 11.31.47 AM.jpg

For that reason, you might find that ProRes422 or ProRes422HQ while not technically lossless actually looks better and may take up the same or less space depending. It gets away with that because it is compressed, but has more actual information present.

To me, uncompressed 8 bit 4:2:2 isn't as desirable as partially compressed and visually lossless 10 bit color (ProRes422/HQ), but to each their own. It used to be an issue where programs like AVIsynth only worked in 8 bit color spaces, but I think there are now 10 bit implementations.

All of this of course depends on the TBC you are using though. If the TBC is using an 8 bit DAC (like the recommended TBC1000/AVT8710), that limits the color variability to 8 bit going forward in the chain, so there'd be no benefit to capturing in 10 bit. This may be why the ES10/15 passthrough is said to be posterized as it may have an effective conversion rate of a bit less than 8 bit which would cause that effect. Looks like the TBC10 is actually a 10 bit and wouldn't surprise me if that is what the "10" in the model number is trying to tell you.

In most standard definition scenes, you probably won't be able to tell the difference for 8 bit versus 10 bit, but in other scenes, you definitely will be able to tell. Sunset is the classic one where the different shades of yellow/orange will appear as bands around the sun as opposed to a smooth transition between them all.


Reply With Quote
  #5  
12-22-2024, 07:23 PM
HiFiVideotape HiFiVideotape is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2024
Location: NTSC
Posts: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Aramkolt, you've heard mixed reviews because as LS has stated regarding the BV units they are mostly trash. There was only a small window of time where they happened to have excellent components and perform incredibly well. And of those few units there were some 10-bit variants which included SDI input and output, as electronsandstuff stated he owns.

Do it once. Do it right.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
01-11-2025, 03:42 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 14,604
Thanked 2,654 Times in 2,259 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiVideotape View Post
Aramkolt, you've heard mixed reviews because as LS has stated regarding the BV units they are mostly trash. There was only a small window of time where they happened to have excellent components and perform incredibly well. And of those few units there were some 10-bit variants which included SDI input and output, as electronsandstuff stated he owns.
Correct, and the SDI out sub-model was even more rare. I've seen maybe 5 in the past 20 years. Most BV do not have SDI, and most spew noise into the image.

About the noise, I've always assumed the company started fine, with low production, good units. The production ramped up, QC was non-existent, and you got flawed products as a result. And that's why most BV are to be avoided. The first BV unit I ever saw were bad. In fact, for a decade (10+ years!), all I saw was bad units.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
Reply




Tags
capture, digitization, tbc

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to adjust Key West Big Voodoo TBC brightness? crissrudd4554 Capture, Record, Transfer 6 11-07-2023 10:18 PM
Setup vs. luminance on Big Voodoo TBC? Acros_13 Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 1 12-19-2022 05:07 AM
Big Voodoo TBC10 functionality, deinterlacing? FleshWound General Discussion 15 07-08-2022 06:54 PM
Problem with used TBC (BVTBC8 aka Big Voodoo TBC8) friendly_jacek Capture, Record, Transfer 10 08-29-2015 07:09 PM
Big Voodoo BVTBC10 settings? Pedestal? Patlamm Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 2 03-17-2015 01:20 PM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:13 PM