Ready to capture VHS, SVHS?

[Stef01]

Hi folks,

Glad I found this forum and expert comments. I've been reading a lot of things here.
I'm planning to capture VHS / SVHS with VirtualDub 1.9.11 and deinterlace with Hybrid QTGMC. My videos are home videos for watching on modern television / PC screen through a NAS.

The material I already have:
- JVC SVHS HR-S7611 (with Line TBC)
- Sony Hi8 EV-S9000E PAL (with line TBC)

The material I bought lately and cheap in case I need a stronger TBC-ish output:
- Panasonic DMR-ES15 PAL
- Sony RDR-HX780 PAL

PC:
Win10 Intel I7 processor

My capture USB stuff:
IO-DATA GV USB2 (ordered in Japan) software version 1.15 for Win10. I also have a Pinnacle DV500Plus, but the old PC is done and the card is not compatible with all motherboards. It also only records to Mpeg I guess.

Capture software:
VirtualDub 1.9.11 + filters (Thx @lordsmurf)
HuffYUV
Hybrid (Thx @Selur)

1. Do I need to capture my 768x576 DAR video material in VirtualDub in 720x576 format? Will it squeeze the 4:3 image? Will I loose picture visibility? 768 x576 is not recommended?

2. What is the best procedure?

2.1 First capture in HuffYUV 4.2.2, no cropping to avoid dropped frames?
2.2 Deinterlace with Hybrid?
2.3 Cropping afterwards in a next step? So in 3 separate steps? Or is it possible to use QTGMC and crop use CCD filter at the same time without having dropped frames? Is it good to crop to 704x576 and why?

3. Convert to Prores422 ?

4. Wat kind of files do you keep on a hard drive as source material for PAL region?

4.2 Original interlaced capture file in HuffYUV in 720x576 as source material? Already cropped or not?
4.3 Deinterlaced Prores422 file cropped to 704x576? Use filters for denoise and color in this process or is this better in post editing using NeatVideo in Premiere Pro?
4.4 Deinterlaced converted H264 file for watching on television and PC screen? Some people convert here to 1440x1080. Should I do that?

Thanks a lot guys

Stef

[lordsmurf]

Welcome.

Replying as I read...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stef01

I'm planning to capture VHS / SVHS with VirtualDub 1.9.11
and deinterlace with Hybrid QTGMC.
The material I already have:
- JVC SVHS HR-S7611 (with Line TBC)
- Sony Hi8 EV-S9000E PAL (with line TBC)
The material I bought lately and cheap in case I need a stronger TBC-ish output:
- Panasonic DMR-ES15 PAL

Software good.
Hardware should be good --- if properly working (and if it's eBay sourced, 50/50 odds of that)

NOTE: You lack a frame TBC. That will likely be a problem eventually. Line TBC cleans the image, frame TBC cleans the signal. You need both.

Quote:

My capture USB stuff:
IO-DATA GV USB2 (ordered in Japan) software version 1.15 for Win10.

This was a mistake. It's not the best card, just a cheap not-the-worst card. The VCRs are like sports cards, but then you're buying your cheap tires at Asda/Walmart. It ruins your true performance. The GV-USB has been "meme'd" online in recent years, mostly by a few overly vocal fans that admire it due to costs alone (and being a "not worst" card). There are better.

Quote:

I also have a Pinnacle DV500Plus, but the old PC is done and the card is not compatible with all motherboards. It also only records to Mpeg I guess.

Too old -- and it was never good even when new.

Quote:

Capture software:
VirtualDub 1.9.11 + filters (Thx @lordsmurf)
HuffYUV
Hybrid (Thx @Selur)

Quote:

1. Do I need to capture my 768x576 DAR video material in VirtualDub in 720x576 format? Will it squeeze the 4:3 image? Will I loose picture visibility? 768 x576 is not recommended?

768x576 is not legal to anything mainstream, so no.
720x576 is the max legal, use that.

768x576 and 720x576 show the same image, just in different pixel geometry. You're not losing anything from less pixels. You have to think in non-basic math to understand video. More than just addition and subtraction, often not even multiplication and division. (That's a reason calculators exist for some things, and at least used to.)

Quote:

2. What is the best procedure?
2.1 First capture in HuffYUV 4.2.2, no cropping to avoid dropped frames?
2.2 Deinterlace with Hybrid?
2.3 Cropping afterwards in a next step? So in 3 separate steps? Or is it possible to use QTGMC and crop use CCD filter at the same time without having dropped frames? Is it good to crop to 704x576 and why?

- capture only, never try to filter (including crop) during capture.
- scrub timeline in VirtualDub, excising unwanted footage, saving Stream Copy output to new file --- or, masking and cropping now (not Stream Copy, but Full Process), essentially pre-processing file for Hybrid deinterlace, which does improve Hybrid speed
- open in Hybrid, then QTGMC, added filters as desired, save out to delivery/final H.264/6 file for watch/distribution

Quote:

3. Convert to Prores422 ?

Why? Only if editing on Mac somewhere.
In that case, don't encode to H.264/etc, but rather the high quality ProRes422 for the NLE (FCP, Premiere) on Mac. FYI, I capture Windows, use VirtualDub2 or Hybrid for ProRes422 exports, including upscaling, edit in FCP for 1080p documentary work.

Quote:

4. Wat kind of files do you keep on a hard drive as source material for PAL region?
4.2 Original interlaced capture file in HuffYUV in 720x576 as source material? Already cropped or not?
4.3 Deinterlaced Prores422 file cropped to 704x576? Use filters for denoise and color in this process or is this better in post editing using NeatVideo in Premiere Pro?
4.4 Deinterlaced converted H264 file for watching on television and PC screen? Some people convert here to 1440x1080. Should I do that?

At minimum, ideally lossless 720x576 interlaced unprocessed captures. Huffyuv best, FFv1 not great for non-SD (HD lossless), ProRes422 is "lossy lossless" (virtually lossless).

If it's important, keep everything. SD files are relatively small (35gb/hour max), and a 22tb HDD is maybe $350 USD now. Sometimes the decision time for "how much should I keep" is more wasteful than just sticking it all on a drive. (If really important, multiple copies, multiple drives, multiple locations.)

Quote:

Thanks a lot guys

[Stef01]

Thanks for your answer Lordsmurf!

About the IO-Data GV USB2. It's new, but an old original version with Win8 sticker on it, straight from Japan. Still crappy stuff? I really thought this thing was okay, according to reviews and comments...

So if I edit in Windows, I should convert in Hybrid to H264? You mean the lossless H264? Will Premiere Pro see that file still as YUV or will it get a RGB treatment? That's why I mentioned Prores422, because I read somewhere on the forum that Prores422 will be handled in Premiere Pro as YUV.

And what about the 720x576 to the 704x576 crop? Is that needed in my case?

Would you do in Hybrid or VirtualDub2 a 1440x1080 upscaling to H264 codec (lossless) for post editing in Windows Premiere Pro? Or keep it 720x576 to edit and upscale afterwards? Better Hybrid or VirtualDub2, or better post editing upscaling in Topaz Video AI?

Many thanks,

Stef

[latreche34]

The proper way is to de-interlace and crop to 704x576, but that won't ged rid of all junk around the frame edges so either mask it or crop it all and resize to 1440x1080, If editing is itended do not encode to any format, you will be damaging your footage. There are many ways to de-interlace and resize while still in near lossless depends what tools you have.

[lordsmurf]

GV-USB2 = not best, not worst, but definitely overrated. It's cheap. That's why people like it. Not for quality, but rather not the worst quality. It's not a compliment. "She's not that ugly."

Reviews mean nothing.
- There are products that literally catch on fire, burn down houses, and still get 5/5 stars with glowing reviews. This is because Amazon/etc incentivizes reviews, and many are fake.
- This is because people generally don't know quality from non-quality, and are satisfied with literally anything. You could re-label dog food as human food, and people would leave good reviews for it. I'm not wrong here, there's research on this.
- People only leave bad reviews when there is a mob mentality, and most of those are fake too.

I don't yet know your project intentions, so it's hard to give exact advice on the order of operations, or what to archive for posterity. It will differ, based on factors.

[Stef01]

Thanks, I understand the problem now.

My intention is to watch the in Premiere Pro edited VHS / S-VHS home and holiday movies on my Samsung 55" LED screen and or PC screen. The interlaced captured files I will store on HDD.

Will Premiere Pro see that HuffYUV video file still as YUV or will it get a RGB treatment? That's why I mentioned Prores422, because I read somewhere on the forum that Prores422 will still be handled in Premiere Pro as YUV. To be clear, I'm not a Mac user.

Would you upscale or resize to 1440x1080 with H264 codec (lossless) for editing in Premiere Pro on a Win10 PC?
Or leave it 720x576? I mean, in what format and what codec you use to edit the videos in Premiere Pro on a Windows 10 PC, keeping in mind to keep YUV color?

Or do you guys edit the Hybrid deinterlaced HuffYUV files in Premiere Pro?

[Gary34]

Quote:

Better Hybrid or VirtualDub2, or better post editing upscaling in Topaz Video AI?

I have read Topaz can cause a color shift by assuming the wrong color matrix. https://community.topazlabs.com/t/ur...findings/54770

Quote:

Will Premiere Pro see that HuffYUV video file still as YUV or will it get a RGB treatment?

Avisynth/Vapoursynth will handle the YUV to RGB conversion. When premier gets the video it will be RGB and then you’ll just use Premier for color editing.

[Stef01]

I read several times that it's important to keep HuffYUV captured video in YUV. Now you say that Avisynth/Vapoursynth converts YUV to RGB? I'm totally confused now. What is the next step when I have a captured interlaced HuffYUV video file? I want to deinterlace in Hybrid and I have to convert to... what? (For editing in Premiere Pro in Windows 10) Whats the best codec and resolution for me?

[lordsmurf]

Avisynth/Vapour can convert color. ConvertToYUY2(), ConvertToYV16(), ConvertToRGB(), etc.
Premiere will.

Premiere is a hatchet job on some things. All NLEs are. With Avisynth (and thus Hybrid), you can pre-process files for better NLE handling. Deinterlace, colorspace conversion, whatever else is needed.

[Stef01]

Okay thx guys... So let's say this will be my process:

Capture: 720x576 HuffYUV 422 interlaced (archive file)

Hybrid: Deinterlace and save as H264 (step 1) - Crop to 704x576 (step 2) - Color convert to RGB (step 3) - Upscale to 1440x1080 (step 4) - archive file

Ready for editing in Premiere Pro ? Is that a bit correct?

[aramkolt]

I could be wrong, but I think you want to avoid H264 for any sort of archive file. That's more of a file delivery format.

[Stef01]

Yeah, that's indeed what I was thinking too. It's confusing, because H264 normally goes out of Premiere Pro.

I need a good quality and workable format/codec/AR for VHS/S-VHS video to edit in Premiere Pro and watch on a tv or pc screen later.

These are the remaining questions on that file format for editing in PP:
Prores422 or H264 (or even HuffYUV) ?
Keep YUV or Color convert to RGB ?
720x576 or 704 x 576 or 1440x1080 ?

What's the way to go forward to have a good quality video file for editing in Windows 10 in Premiere Pro? Can somebody please tell me?

[Gary34]

Quote:

Keep YUV or Color convert to RGB ?

Convert to RGB. Your video will be displayed in the RGB color space. When you hear getting the RGB treatment with Premier Pro they are talking about if you try to bring a YUV video into Premier it will automatically expand the YUV color space to RGB as soon as you try to edit because Premier works in RGB. Premier isn’t good at making that conversion. Hybrid is good at making that conversion. Hybrid will allow you to work in YUV before going to RGB. Premier Pro is better at RGB color editing than Hybrid.

Quote:

Prores422 or H264 (or even HuffYUV) ?

H.264 is meant to be encoded to at the end. You want to avoid lossy compression until the end of editing. H.264 compresses your video a lot by throwing out information that you will need if you are going to edit. The GOP structure of H.264 make it tough for editors to deal with. H.264 is designed for sharing. Losslessly compressed codecs don’t lose information. They they are designed for editing.

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720x576 or 704 x 576 or 1440x1080 ?

1440 by 1080 for YouTube because YouTube uses square pixels and YouTube treats SD poorly so people upscale to HD. Once you capture losslessly compressed capture you can encode to watch on whatever player you want. You won’t upscale for anything you watch locally.

[7jlong]

I'll tell you what I do, but definitely keep in mind that customs vary. I also am not a business; I just end up with large VHS projects now and then.

I do what LS said and immediately trim any unwanted material at the beginning or end of my capture in VDub and save a new file. I happen to save an uncompressed .AVI for this. It has simply made my life that much easier, and I have the space and speed to handle it. (but save your original capture! always!)

I edit with those files, in Premiere. Works great, but at the risk of sounding show-offy I have to mention that I very recently and very specifically built a heavy duty new machine so that editing and rendering from giant uncompressed AVIs wouldn't be tedious and burdensome. It isn't, unless I'm rendering in the summer. HOT!

[Stef01]

Thx Gary34 and 7jlong,

So what you guys say is to deinterlace the HuffYUV 422 in Hybrid and keep it losless in the same HuffYUV 422 ?

So you edit in Premiere Pro the in Hybrid deinterlaced, cropped, color converted to RGB and denoised files in lossless HufYUV 422? Is that possible? Will that work smoothly? Also when you render in Premiere Pro and export to H264? Is that smoothly working?

[7jlong]

No, I don't create HuffYUV files to edit with. Uncompressed AVIs. No compression scheme whatsoever, not even a lossless one. I also do not deinterlace footage before the editing stage, and I do not deinterlace when I output a "master" file. I would only deinterlace if I had a strong reason to do so, as the interlacing preserves detail that is lost instantly no matter how good or well-tweaked your deinterlacer is.

Yep, the uncompressed files are huge, unfortunately.

[Gary34]

Quote:

So what you guys say is to deinterlace the HuffYUV 422 in Hybrid and keep it losless in the same HuffYUV 422 ?

4:2:2 is YUV. The 2:2 is chroma subsampling. https://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/vi...nd-sources.htm
RGB is 4:4:4. You will capture within the 16 to 235 luminance range then when you convert to RGB that will get expanded. 16-235 will go to 0-255. Anything that was outside of the legal limits 16-235 will be clipped. You’ll use the sone type of proc amp to stay within the legal limits during capture.

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So you edit in Premiere Pro the in Hybrid deinterlaced, cropped, color converted to RGB and denoised files in lossless HufYUV 422?

Premier will be after Hybrid.

Only deinterlace when needed. YouTube requires deinterlacing.

[Stef01]

7jlong, so you stay in the 720x576 capture? Not a 1440x1080 in your flow?

[Gary34]

Quote:

So you stay in the 720x576 capture? Not a 1440x1080 in your flow?

I capture 720 480 NTSC then keep that losslessly compressed interlaced file and then encode to whatever from there. 1440 1080 is just an upscale for YouTube.

[7jlong]

No, I don't do any scaling anywhere in my workflow. If I wanted to upscale or deinterlace later for some reason, I'd do it off the finished master file I created from my edited project. All that scaling just makes everything take longer if done earlier since its a processor burden, and doesn't serve much of a purpose except to make up pixels.

I went back to your original post - you really don't have any reason to deinterlace (or upscale) if you will be playing back files from a NAS on a modern television. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I'm fairly sure most TVs these days will handle interlacing from a streaming file? You might have to look up the exact file specs that make your TV the happiest, I think some of them can be fussy, but I'd skip both the scaling and deinterlace for now and see how things go. You can always create a new, deinterlaced version of your finished projects. Going the other way is a disaster.