#1  
09-22-2010, 05:35 PM
fuzzblaster fuzzblaster is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 9
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi,
I'm playing my JVC HR 9600 into a canopus 110 to capture vhs and s vhs using sony vegas in my PC.

I've already done four hours of tape using the "auto" mode for playback in the deck.
I've read that "edit" mode would be better for playback. It would be sharper. I'm not getting any noise using edit mode. Or NORMAL MODE
It looks similar,maybe a bit more detail.
Do you think I need to redo the first tapes that I ran into the PC in auto mode over, or do you think the difference is minimal.
both look pretty good.
But I would really love to know what you pro's think. Will it make that much difference. Haven't really started to compare the results.

Posted elswhere and got different opinions, what do you think?

THANKS
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
09-23-2010, 07:13 PM
robjv1 robjv1 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 187
Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzblaster View Post
Hi,
I'm playing my JVC HR 9600 into a canopus 110 to capture vhs and s vhs using sony vegas in my PC.

I've already done four hours of tape using the "auto" mode for playback in the deck.
I've read that "edit" mode would be better for playback. It would be sharper. I'm not getting any noise using edit mode. Or NORMAL MODE
It looks similar,maybe a bit more detail.
Do you think I need to redo the first tapes that I ran into the PC in auto mode over, or do you think the difference is minimal.
both look pretty good.
But I would really love to know what you pro's think. Will it make that much difference. Haven't really started to compare the results.

Posted elswhere and got different opinions, what do you think?

THANKS
The thinking is that the "edit" mode in JVC decks turns off enough of the filters, that the added sharpness (and/or noise) is a tradeoff, as now you are missing out on the filters that make the JVC a special deck in the first place. This might be amplified since you are going into a capture card and not (certain) DVD recorders, if you aren't doing any additional filtering once you've got it digital.

This is where a device like a Vidicraft sharpener or SignVideo sharpener comes in as it offers two advantages: First off, you don't have to disengage the JVC filter set just to increase the appearance of sharpness, and second the device allows for a highly variable range of adjustment, instead of a "sharp/not sharp" toggle switch that people use edit mode for.

In my experience, edit mode works fine on tapes that are low noise and low motion, but you should use your eyes and a BIG and unforgiving screen to compare the two and see what you like better for tapes that are more noisy from a normal viewing distance. Are you working with commercial tapes or home movies/TV recordings?

Last edited by robjv1; 09-23-2010 at 07:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
09-23-2010, 07:45 PM
fuzzblaster fuzzblaster is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 9
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The video was shot on a pansonic ag 450 and 460. Some stuff was edited using pro equipment onto S vhs. Mostly fuji pro tapes.

The tapes look pretty noise free but there is jitter on some.

JVC recomends you use the normal mode without the TBC on with the stabalizer on. That's what the manual says about PC capture and the 9600 playback.

I see good results, but I am monitoring through a toshiba DVD recorder into a CRT televison. I can also see the screen in Vegas.

I Don't see the TBC being on making that much difference but on some tapes it did help with jitters.

I left the TBC on and used the edit mode so far and it looks pretty good becuase there is not a lot of noise.

On other forums many people swear by the edit mode but the infamous Lord Smurf says not to use it. Like you say, one should make use of the filters.

Normal with the calibration OFF and stabalizer on and TBC off

or Edit mode with TBC on. I'd like to make the best choice.

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
09-23-2010, 08:07 PM
robjv1 robjv1 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 187
Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts
Sounds like pretty good looking stuff, not your typical run of the mill tape.

With the VHS tapes I’ve done (no SVHS mind you) the stabilizer did nothing for me. On one of my decks it often caused problems with the image (change in color, weird jitter) and on the other deck it didn’t appear to do anything. It's been known to cause issues, so as a general principal I usually leave it off on my deck, but experiment with it if you like. Tapes that play with a lot of jitter like that are either best captured in another VCR altogether, or making a first run with the TBC on, stabilizer off, then going over it, identifying the jittery parts, then recording those parts with the TBC off, and editing it all together.

Well, if your output now and forever will be a CRT, then whatever is pleasing to your eyes might be best. Keep in mind though; the display devices of the future are not likely to be so forgiving to footage of this quality, so I would test your work in both modes on an LCD just to see if it makes a difference in perceived detail/noise.

The problem at heart is that not every setting is appropriate for every tape. Trying to pin down one universal setting to do your tapes with will be elusive. If you don’t want to be dissatisfied with future captures, then record a little and test it out. Then record a little more. It’s like the old programmers adage “code a little, test a lot”.

In the end though, you should trust your eyes. Just make sure you are keeping an eye to the future and forming some basis for comparison.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
09-23-2010, 08:12 PM
robjv1 robjv1 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 187
Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts
Also, just wanted to add, that jitter is really a separate issue. Tackling that is another thing all together, because tapes can jitter in ANY of the modes and settings. The TBC on can create it's own jitter, the TBC off can reveal wavy lines, the stabilizer on can create it's own weird jitter/motion. You will have to decide at some point how much of a perfectionist you want to be about it. If you can't live with it at all, then you're going to need to sharpen up your editing tools and filters to tackle it in other ways.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
09-23-2010, 08:27 PM
fuzzblaster fuzzblaster is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 9
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Some will be for DVD. Hopefully a home DVD release. It's comedy stuff.

I will want to burn good looking DVD's to play on newer tV's

A lot of it will be for online broadcast, youtube etc. So I will be rendering it in several formats. I'm not looking for network quality because I didn't start with that type of equipment.

Another note: If you know how the panisonic AG450 (the reporter) video camera shoots vhs and especially S VHS videos in what has a very soft look. Not like harsh bad digital video. Many people think it looks like film. It's already pretty soft and that's why I don't think it needs to be any "softer"

Sometimes the reds come out in peoples faces, but perhaps I can correct that I Vegas.

Thanks a lot for the help!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
09-24-2010, 03:03 AM
Steve(MS) Steve(MS) is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 126
Thanked 14 Times in 12 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzblaster View Post
The video was shot on a pansonic ag 450 and 460. Some stuff was edited using pro equipment onto S vhs. Mostly fuji pro tapes.

The tapes look pretty noise free but there is jitter on some.

JVC recomends you use the normal mode without the TBC on with the stabalizer on. That's what the manual says about PC capture and the 9600 playback.

I see good results, but I am monitoring through a toshiba DVD recorder into a CRT televison. I can also see the screen in Vegas.

I Don't see the TBC being on making that much difference but on some tapes it did help with jitters.

I left the TBC on and used the edit mode so far and it looks pretty good becuase there is not a lot of noise.

On other forums many people swear by the edit mode but the infamous Lord Smurf says not to use it. Like you say, one should make use of the filters.

Normal with the calibration OFF and stabalizer on and TBC off

or Edit mode with TBC on. I'd like to make the best choice.

Thanks!
It sounds like you have some well recorded tapes to start with so the difference you see between edit and normal on those tapes you are copying may not be as noticeable.
Now if you start copying worn and/or old tapes then you should see a definite difference while checking between edit and normal picture settings.
Actually I think JVC recommends edit for the picture control while copying but as robjv mentioned, it really depends tape to tape.

Infamous Lord Smurf?

He knows his stuff as well as the other pros on this site.
His logic is foolproof IMO, as he has mentioned before, why bother owning a VCR that has picture controls only to use edit all the time.
May as well buy a cheap VCR and do all copying with it.
The picture controls are tools to be used as needed and turned off if the situation warrants.
I tried auto mode and didn't like it at all so for me as instructed on this forum, I turn off stabilizer then the normal picture control is available.
About the red faces, get a proc amp.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
09-24-2010, 04:09 AM
robjv1 robjv1 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 187
Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzblaster View Post
Another note: If you know how the panisonic AG450 (the reporter) video camera shoots vhs and especially S VHS videos in what has a very soft look. Not like harsh bad digital video. Many people think it looks like film. It's already pretty soft and that's why I don't think it needs to be any "softer"
I'm not familiar with that camera, but I know exactly what you mean. The concept of sharpness seems to boil down mostly to personal taste -- VHS is such a soft medium as it is, that you can't add much to it without oversharpening and causing problems or creating false edges.

If you are satisfied with your captures of these tapes in edit mode, then there is nothing wrong with that I say. Sometimes it really is the best mode and your footage sounds in pristine shape. If the difference with the TBC is engaged is subtle, then why not? Just don't forget your VCR has other picture options when you move onto other tapes.

I tend to like my video a little "sharper" than many, but I've learned to go much easier on it than I used to, because it's SO easy to sharpen to the point where you add noise and kill the encoder. I switched decks from JVC SR-V101US (we'll call it a less well built cousin of most of the JVC 9000 series) to the JVC SR-W5U deck, because the transport is much more stable (effectively reducing the sometimes annoying jitter) and the baseline picture is more to my liking in terms of sharpness, but YMMV.

It's all about finding the balance you like. I started out WAY over-sharpening and preferred the look but now when I look back at my early captures and how ugly they were... I'm glad I kept the tapes, so I could redo them
Reply With Quote
  #9  
09-27-2010, 03:51 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
At least 9 times out of 10, I would echo my comment from VH:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Leaving the JVC on EDIT mode is essentially turning off all the image filters. You may as well not use the machine if you're going to just turn off the filters that make it the respected video tape player that it is. If you see AUTO and not NORM, then you have calibration turned on. Don't do that. Turn off calibration -- it's rarely helpful. VHS recordings are really rough, and most often "detail" is perceived and not actually present. Noise gives that illusion.
Read this: JVC VCR Picture Control Settings to Use While capturing
Link: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...trol-2315.html
... and most people who think they are the 1 out of the 10 are not.

But I also completely agree with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by robjv1 View Post
I'm not familiar with that camera, but I know exactly what you mean. The concept of sharpness seems to boil down mostly to personal taste -- VHS is such a soft medium as it is, that you can't add much to it without oversharpening and causing problems or creating false edges. If you are satisfied with your captures of these tapes in edit mode, then there is nothing wrong with that I say. Sometimes it really is the best mode and your footage sounds in pristine shape. If the difference with the TBC is engaged is subtle, then why not? Just don't forget your VCR has other picture options when you move onto other tapes.
But...
Quote:
The video was shot on a pansonic ag 450 and 460. Some stuff was edited using pro equipment onto S vhs. Mostly fuji pro tapes.
This sounds like you shot the video under very ideal circumstances, and were careful in the chain that created the master. In this case, you may get by with no filters, maybe not even a TBC. (I'd still use the TBC, err on side of caution.) Quite a few of my own SP mode S-VHS tapes, shot in a camera, need no added filter work. Even chrome noise is nearly zero, where I could skip a TBC and get by. But I want perfect video, or as close as is possible, so I use the TBC.

Quote:
The tapes look pretty noise free but there is jitter on some.
And this sounds like some of the gear you used was no calibrated/aligned well. Fuji tapes are also craptastic, they had a reputation that they did not deserve. The tapes were grainy, which likely adds to a false perception of sharpness. TDK, Sony and JVC S-VHS tapes were MUCH MUCH better back in the day. My best stuff was shot to TDK or JVC, duped to Maxell S-VHS masters, which was then duplicated en masse to TDK, BASF , Sony, JVC or Maxell consumer grade tapes. None of the Maxell duping masters have survived, awful physical tape quality, VCRs eat them (especially JVC models).

Getting back to the issue, if this is vertical "bouncing" type jitter, there may be nothing that can be done. The JVC stabilizer may fix it, but probably not. A TBC-1000 may reduce it, but maybe not. It may require VirtualDub + deshaker with vertical correction tweaks to correct. That's challenege, too, however. I just finished two projects like this -- what I'd easily call a "testing hell" scenario, where you spend more time tweaking the deshake settings that actually deshaking the entire video.

Vertical jitter is not an easy flaw to fix.

Wavy loss-of-timing (timebase) horizontal jitter, on the other hand, is simply a matter of a good TBC and/or frame sync, and you're good to go. That could be a JVC S-VHS VCR, or a Panasonic ES10 as passthrough.

Quote:
JVC recomends you use the normal mode without the TBC on with the stabalizer on. That's what the manual says about PC capture and the 9600 playback.
That book is full of awful advice. Just put it back in the drawer. At least it pre-dates the now-so-common Engrish manuals we tend to get. I don't know who writes some of these video manuals, but they've clearly not used the VCR very much.

Quote:
I see good results, but I am monitoring through a toshiba DVD recorder into a CRT televison. I can also see the screen in Vegas.
This might be a mistake. It's good to see at those sizes, yes. But also look at it on a modern display. Can you see any difference on a 50-60" HDTV LCD, Plasma, LCoS, etc? Perceptions of sharpness really change when you start to view view regularly on a large screen. HD isn't really as sharp as people celebrate, but older video isn't "sharp" with or without certain filters on/off. It will look the same. In fact, noisy video looks worse on the modern displays, as you will see the noise as noise, not as detail.

Quote:
Sometimes the reds come out in peoples faces, but perhaps I can correct that I Vegas.
Yep, proc amp. Hardware is better, but you can do a minor tweak like this in software if you must. I don't know what versions of Vegas have which filters off-hand, but I know Premiere CS3 and higher has excellent color controls, huge range of filters.


Good luck!

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #10  
09-27-2010, 04:52 PM
fuzzblaster fuzzblaster is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 9
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Your help has been very beneficial in reaching my goals in converting these important tapes to digital formats.

These were all shot with those Panisonic video cameras and for playing them back for capture the...... EDIT MODE w TBC on has worked best.

In the US back when S VHS was a common format for so many mid level video people working with weddings and affairs shot on those cameras, so I would think more people would know what kind of camera master SVHS signal those cameras would put out. Since you know so much about decks you must know about VIDEO cameras from those days. (AG 450)


The tapes that had jitter were from the camera, although some were from edited versions (maybe those tapes went bad). I don't know!

But I got enough footage to use.

The JVC deck I got on your advise I'm very happy with.


Much appriciated.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
09-27-2010, 05:02 PM
fuzzblaster fuzzblaster is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 9
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
TBC ON FOR CAPTURE

IT has helped. Has not distorted capture as the JVC documentation says.

I'm glad you reputied thier manuel. (how could a big company (JVC) put out worng techincal info ?)

The TBC on has helped with the playback (on my tapes) and not harmed the PC capture.....as they said it would/could?


Nuff Said

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
09-27-2010, 05:13 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Quote:
Since you know so much about decks you must know about VIDEO cameras from those days. (AG 450)
Once upon a time, yes. But it's been almost 10 years since I shot anything on S-VHS. I moved to DV, and these days I shoot directly to 720p/24 MJPEG AVI files on a CompactFlash.

Quote:
The tapes that had jitter were from the camera, although some were from edited versions (maybe those tapes went bad). I don't know!
Yeah, unless you took notes, it's really hard to isolate problems like this. It points back to a mechanical failing on the part of the camera or deck, as most likely culprit. Starting around 1998, I started to mark all of my tapes with deck/camera IDs and dates. And I've noticed trends in decks as they age. I also have notes on professional re-alignments and my own cleanings, and there is trend data to show how recording/playback quality improved.

In those days, I was still purely hobby, so I had time to do what I wanted like that, not always rushed to finish this production or that project.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Resizing normal cover to fit 7mm case manthing Project Planning, Workflows 2 03-30-2010 03:46 PM
Burn HD-Content on a normal DVD on a MAC admin Project Planning, Workflows 0 09-08-2009 09:37 AM
Video edit theory Hampton80 Edit Video, Audio 1 01-24-2008 07:09 PM
Edit an mpeg without re-rendering dmsinger Encode, Convert for discs 4 03-16-2005 12:10 PM
How to edit IFO/ISO/VOB files? mlaviolette Encode, Convert for discs 2 02-12-2005 08:25 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:34 AM