Mac OS: S-VHS capture without Elgato? + lessons learned

[kpmedia]

Why are you deinterlacing?

[ame-otoko]

@metaleonid: Thanks for the feedback regarding ATI devices. I'm sure you will only provide advice based on your own experiences. My comment earlier was to be understood in a bit more general way I guess. That being said, while Bootcamp ran on your 2008 Mac with XP, the version of Bootcamp I would have to use on my newer Mac does not support Windows XP or Vista. While your advice is absolutely useful for users with older Macs, it doesn't work for me unless I would chose Windows 7/8.

@kpmedia:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpmedia

Why are you deinterlacing?

As mentioned earlier, I have created a simple DVD with my original sample movie and two "noise reduced/corrected" versions in iDVD. The video files have not been deinterlaced at all. Yet, the playback (DVD on HDTV) showed the interlaced footage with lines. Am I right in assuming that nowadays, captured footage must be deinterlaced before it's authored onto a DVD that will be used on a HDTV, whereas only old CRT TVs would handle interlaced video accordingly?

In short: adding the interlaced footage to iDVD produced interlaced lines on my TV. Adding deinterlaced footage to iDVD did not.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ame-otoko

As mentioned earlier, I have created a simple DVD with my original sample movie and two "noise reduced/corrected" versions in iDVD. The video files have not been deinterlaced at all. Yet, the playback (DVD on HDTV) showed the interlaced footage with lines.

Then there is something wrong with your capture, your workflow, your encoding, or your TV.Interlaved or telecined video properly processed with set top players or HDTV doesn't show any "lines"unless the vcideo is screwed up or the playback hardware is incompetent or improperly set up. In summary, if you see interlace disturbances on your TV with standard format DVD/BluRay, you're doing something wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ame-otoko

Am I right in assuming that nowadays, captured footage must be deinterlaced before it's authored onto a DVD that will be used on a HDTV, whereas only old CRT TVs would handle interlaced video accordingly?

Nonsense. Commercial DVD is either interlaced or telecined, including several formats of BluRay and AVCHD. Players and TV's are programmed to do the work properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ame-otoko

In short: adding the interlaced footage to iDVD produced interlaced lines on my TV. Adding deinterlaced footage to iDVD did not.

As I said, something wrong with your processing. Interlacing doesn't show "lines", it shows combing when played improperly. As for your .mov file, it's not DVD compliant. Your sample uses a variable frame rate, which is a no-no for all standard formats. Your audio sampling rate is also invalid. The sample has been deinterlaced with frame decimation (?), dumping 50% of your original resolution into the toilet and resulting in very noisy playback with annoying aliasing and line twitter -- a sure mark of incorrect and destructive deinterlacing.

Sorry, but your sample shows many signs of improper processing.

[ame-otoko]

@sanlyn: Thanks for the in-depth feedback.

As for the issue of "lines" on the TV, I think it was the fault of iDVD not properly encoding the video file... I will look into that once I test another set of edited footage. I didn't use that software in years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

Your sample uses a variable frame rate, which is a no-no for all standard formats. Your audio sampling rate is also invalid. The sample has been deinterlaced with frame decimation, dumping 50% of your original resolution into the toilet and resulting in very noisy playback with annoying aliasing and line twitter -- a sure mark of incorrect and destructive deinterlacing.

Sorry, but your sample shows many signs of improper processing.

Thank you for the feedback on the samples! I assume you have downloaded the files because I have no clue if that preview video option by dropbox messes with the video files...

• The first sample is the exact output of the capture device. As mentioned below the download link, these are the specs: Container: .mov, Video Codec: YUV422, Audio Codec: no audio recorded
  I cannot quite comprehend your criticism because I didn't touch the framerate and I didn't record any audio either (hence the invalid sampling rate?). I can, however, select a variety of fixed framerates. So I guess selecting "25" as fixed framerate should do for the PAL tapes I'm working on?

• The second sample only ran through JES Video Cleaner to remove some of the noise. These are the specs: Container: .mov, Video Codec: YUV420, Audio Codec: no audio recorded
  Perhaps some of the flaws you mentioned result from the JES Video Cleaner? Feedback regarding this freeware was rather positive.

FYI, I did not deinterlace anything - at least not knowingly...

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ame-otoko

FYI, I did not deinterlace anything - at least not knowingly...

Well....the second sample is definitely deinterlaced, and not very well, apparently by iDVD. As you stated earlier:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ame-otoko

my current Mac OS "workflow" (if you can call it that way) for PAL S-VHS-C involves capture in YUV422 codec (720 × 576), as mentioned earlier, and then auto-noise reduction with JES video cleaner, followed by deinterlacing and color/balance adjustments with JES Deinterlacer (both freeware), in order to author them onto an iDVD project.

The output is not vald for DVD anyway and would have to be re-encoded -- from which you can expect another quality hit.

I've seen this bad interlacing in captures with a lot of inappropriate or poorly designed capture devices. Nothing new there, and it's obvious in your first sample capture, which is badly interlaced. Those devices make for a lot of unnecessary hard work.

Attached is your first sample, reworked, color fixed up and some noise cleaned (Avisynth and VirtualDub), combing mostly fixed, decoded to progressive AVI with QTGMC, then encoded as interlaced-flagged PAL DVD-compatible m2v (no audio). The attached .m2t is the same thing, same methods, SD-BluRay compatible (RAR'd, since m2t isn't on the list of favored formats).

I'd go for a better capture device.

[ame-otoko]

@sanlyn: Amazing! Thanks a lot for the in-depth feedback and conclusions.

With respect to deinterlacing, the two sample files have not been deinterlaced in terms of consciously choosing a dedicated deinterlace method or option/setting during encoding. I am not expert, so I can only guess that JES Video Cleaner's "noise reduction" function did some deinterlacing during the process (second sample file)? Or perhaps within the QuickTime framework of Mac OS codecs, the compression method I chose (YUV420) is - for whatever reason - preconfigured to deinterlace?

The file I did in fact deinterlace was not uploaded and merely served as one of many samples for iDVD. As mentioned earlier, it's been more than ten years since I last dealt with capturing video from analog media... most intangible knowledge from that era is gone

And I have downloaded the sample files provided. Wow, looking much better! Thanks for taking the time to do that!

So you're saying a better capture device would produce less interlacing or at least better footage from the start? Any hint to a USB solution, if any? In the end, I guess your feedback has showcased the flaws of the USB capture device I am using. And that is not to say that I didn't trust the advice given in the first place, i.e. to use a Windows based system with a decent capture card. But as mentioned earlier, I am bound to the hardware at hand (short term) and I am eager to find out - at least to a certain extent - the currently available options and possibilities for Mac OS.

[sanlyn]

I can't speak for Macs. I haven't used a Mac for video since 1998, although I've seen a few and even repaired a couple. Regarding capture I can only echo what lordsmurf wrote in post #12 (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post35486).

I note you remarked earlier that the "old knowledge" of 10 years ago no longer exists. Yet it does. People use it every day. The hardware has changed somewhat, but principles remain the same. I have a new Windows PC, but I capture with some old XP's, one of which I bought used, the other I built myself in 2007. You can still buy OEM copies of XP Pro, or find an old PC. Many have done it and still do it. My capture cards are a little harder to find: an ATI 7500 AIW Radeon and an ATI 9600XT AIW. Obviously PAL 6 is a problem, but I see people doing this on a Mac occasionally. A Mac user might be able to help with that.

Your sample had severe interlace problems and would not reinterlace properly for cleanup. There was also some chroma bleed, chroma levels, color balance and other glitches. The first two frames are distorted -- I don't know how that happened in cutting from the original for the sample. I did the cleanup in Avisynth and VirtualDub. You have neither of those tools, but others might want to know what I did with the finished clip:

QTInput("E:\forum\ame-otoko\test.mov")
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)

# --- deinterlace ----
AssumeTFF().QTGMC(preset="very fast").SelectEven()

# --- filter for excessive combing ---
vInverse()

# --- correct invalid luma/chroma levels    ---
# --- which exceed RGB 255 in the original. ---
# ---------------------------------------------
ColorYUV(off_y=-7,off_u=-6)
SmoothLevels(15,1.1,255,15,245,chroma=200,limiter=0,tvrange=true,\
  smooth=200,dither=100,protect=6)

# --- crop uneven borders, top border noise, ---
# --- head-switchiong noise, center frame    ---
# --- for 704x576 PAL 4:3 DVD.               ---
# ----------------------------------------------
Crop(10,2,-6,-8).AddBorders(0,4,0,6)

# --- reduce left-edge chroma bleed. ----
MergeChroma(awarpsharp2(depth=30))

# --- mild, "smart" sharpener via masking ----
LimitedSharpenFaster(strength=75)

# --- To RGB32 for more color and levels work ---
ConvertToRGB32(interlaced=false, matrix="Rec601")

# --- VirtualDub filters used:
# --- --- ColorMill, gradation curves, ColorTools 1.4 histogram
# --- VirtualDub output saved as YV12 for encoding. ---
# --- MPEG encoder: TMPGenc Mastering Works

The attached .m2v is purely progressive PAL for DVD @25fps, with no interlace playback flags.

These are Windows tools and plugins. I don't know how it could be done on a Mac .

[ame-otoko]

@sanlyn: Thanks again for the elaborate feedback!

Sorry, I meant to say that I have lost some of the intangible knowledge, the lessons learned, Windows expertise, and so forth over the years.

Thank you for uploading another sample in progressive PAL with 25fps. That sample looks pretty close to what I would like to achieve from the old S-VHS-C tapes (and other NTSC VHS tapes in the long-term). Back then, I was using a proprietary Hauppauge software that came with the capture card, as well as VirtualDub. For further editing and enhancement, TMPEGEnc and some Ulead suite was my software of choice among various freeware tryouts.
I understand most of the commands provided in your Avisynth script. Thanks for the additional explanations. Obviously, VirtualDub and Avisynth on the Mac would be bliss. Volksjager pointed me to some possible configurations. When I find the resources (mainly time... and PAL-60 hardware availability) I would like to learn about building a dedicated Windows PC for capturing. Eventually, my hope was to establish a hobbyist workflow (capture > DVD use) for Mac to share with other users, you know, for casual capturing of analog media. Well, we see how that worked out so far...

[themaster1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1

My card does, bought it around 2006 i believe it's a Hauppauge Cynergy 250 pci card.

My bad, it's a TerraTec Cinergy 250 PCI , not hauppauge (i've confused with my dvb-t card).Try to look for newer hardware though. This card is 9 bit a/d and 32khz audio, newer cards can go up to 12 bit a/d, 48khz.

Maybe you should look for something like this for Mac:
http://www.amazon.com/AJA-KONA-Compo.../dp/B0012LO7S2

[sanlyn]

Thanks to theMaster1 for new info.

The 25p video does play (and so does the 25i), but some resolution is lost, and interlaced video plays with smoother motion. So it's a tradeoff -- pure progressive for one impression, old-time interlaced for another effect. Your capture device, however, doesn't appear to be giving you a clean capture.

[ame-otoko]

@themaster1: Thanks for the information on that Mac compatible capture card. I have never heard of that brand "AJA KONA" over here, but if I had a Mac Pro and the extra cash to spend on my hobbyist approach at video capture, I would give it a try.

@sanlyn:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

Your capture device, however, doesn't appear to be giving you a clean capture.

So you are saying that the "lines" (which are predominant during camera motion or moving objects) my samples are suffering, are in fact a flaw of the hardware and not interlaced lines? When I capture in 360x288, those "lines" are not visible or at least I cannot see them.

Adding to these issues, I have run a couple more tests today and found that even though I selected 25fps for PAL input, the captured footage (Apple Animation codec, 720×576) varied between 24,67 to 24,94fps - that according to the file info shown by QuickTime and VLC.

At this point, I do not understand what contributes to the two above-mentioend flaws... perhaps the VideoGlide software or the USB capture hardware fail to capture fixed 25fps? And could it be that my Macbook Pro (Mid 2012), the USB port, or the USB capture stick are not "fast" enough to capture in 720x576?

I understand that other Windows based capture devices suggested produce better outcomes in terms of picture quality, but if that USB capture stick was really that bad, I'm surprised that none of the reviews I found explained similar problems (most negative reviews came from software/driver issues).

[volksjager]

you cant trust review online for most things and especially capture stuff.
most reviews are left by people with no clue whatsoever about video.
they have no idea what to look how much better the quality could be.

Aja Kona - be prepared to pay, these are expensive
https://www.aja.com/en/family/kona

[ame-otoko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by volksjager

you cant trust review online for most things and especially capture stuff.
most reviews are left by people with no clue whatsoever about video.
they have no idea what to look how much better the quality could be.

No doubt about that... just like I don't trust wikipedia or established (in terms of repetitive) opinions in internet forums. I like to go and see for myself.
Nevertheless, apart from the quality of those reviews, I would have at least expected someone to complain about the two aforementioned issues (lines/fuzziness; no real 25fps). I remember my yesteryear Hauppauge card was suffering from similar flaws in any resolution 640x480 and above. But that was clearly due to a lack of RAM and CPU power back then.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ame-otoko

So you are saying that the "lines" (which are predominant during camera motion or moving objects) my samples are suffering, are in fact a flaw of the hardware and not interlaced lines? When I capture in 360x288, those "lines" are not visible or at least I cannot see them.

The effect isn't called "lines" (because that could mean any number of things). It's called interlace combing and aliasing. You won't see it at 360x288 because a horizontal resolution of 288 lines won't be captured as interlaced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ame-otoko

Adding to these issues, I have run a couple more tests today and found that even though I selected 25fps for PAL input, the captured footage (Apple Animation codec, 720×576) varied between 24,67 to 24,94fps - that according to the file info shown by QuickTime and VLC.

Your sample varied even more than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by volksjager

you cant trust review online for most things and especially capture stuff.
most reviews are left by people with no clue whatsoever about video.
they have no idea what to look how much better the quality could be.

Very true.

[ame-otoko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

The effect isn't called "lines" (because that could mean any number of things). It's called interlace combing and aliasing. You won't see it at 360x288 because a horizontal resolution of 288 lines won't be captured as interlaced.

Thanks for the explanation. My footage partly looks like this sample here (source).

So interlace combing and aliasing are caused by... what? Is it a hardware deficiency? How can it be avoided?
Or do you deal with it only by applying suitable Avisynth scripts/filters? And if so, how is that content then not deinterlaced (by mistake)?

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ame-otoko

So interlace combing and aliasing are caused by... what? Is it a hardware deficiency? How can it be avoided?

By using capture devices and software better suited for the purpose. A Windows user could lead you away from capture devices that are known to be poor performers, of which there are quite a few. A Mac user will have to help with a Mac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ame-otoko

Or do you deal with it only by applying suitable Avisynth scripts/filters?

Most people deal with it by capturing properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ame-otoko

And if so, how is that content then not deinterlaced (by mistake)?

Can't happen. No filters or processing plugins are loaded into an Avisynth script or into Virtualdub unless the user puts them there, and they are always put there manually.

[EDIT] Browsed the artcile, which is like a great many similar mass-consumer posts, This whole deinterlacing craze is born largely of ignorance. Users are confused about PC playback and a-v system/TV playback. The mass-consumer hacks have capitalized on the trend, making it appear that something is always gained by deinterlacing. Not so.

Here's the bad news:
1920x1080 and 1440x1080 commercial BluRay, unless transferred from motion picture film, are interlaced per official industry-wide BluRay and AVCHD standards. If the source material is at 29.97 or 25fps and is progressive, by spec it must be encoded as interlaced. The only valid HD BluRay for non-interlaced material is 23.976 or 24fps original source (movie film).
Commercial DVD's 720x480 NTSC/720x576 PAL and other SD-DVD or SD-BluRay videos are interlaced or telecined.
SD and HDTV broadcasts are usually interlaced and broadcast movies are broadcast as telecined.
Video for internet display is almost always progressive. On-site browser players don't deinterlace.

[metaleonid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1

My bad, it's a TerraTec Cinergy 250 PCI , not hauppauge (i've confused with my dvb-t card).Try to look for newer hardware though. This card is 9 bit a/d and 32khz audio, newer cards can go up to 12 bit a/d, 48khz.

This is a Philips SAA713x family chip based card. You're using a wrong tool and wrong drivers to capture video. This is why you're getting white smear. Don't use drivers for this card and don't use VirtualDub. You should be using Philips native drivers and this tool http://auzol.narod.ru/index_e.html to be capturing video. You can turn AGC off with this tool and have the manual gain. Go to this website and read all about it. Questions? PM me.

[themaster1]

I use fly2000tv since ages and i use the certified drivers from terratec but out of curiosity i'd be willing to try the philips ones if you have a link.

[metaleonid]

Yeah, but you first need to download Philips native drivers for this device and point to them. This drivers can be obtained from the website I pointed you to. Then in this application you have to tell to use native mode and not WDM. This is done in hardware tab. And then in video tab you need to uncheck AGC. Use manual gain. I usually set it between 35 and 45 to avoid white smear.

[kpmedia]

Rather than just refer to a site that may disappear --- why not grab the files, RAR them up, and attach to a post or new thread here?

Because this site isn't going anywhere.