Sony Hi8 capture setup drops frames?

[walruspants]

Hi everyone,

Last year, my father passed away, and he left behind a collection of VHS and Hi8 tapes. Some contain family memories, while others are recordings of concerts and TV shows. I’d love to digitize these tapes to preserve them. I’ve already started experimenting with a setup to understand what works best before committing to a large batch of captures—avoiding the frustration of having to redo everything. My current setup is:

Hi8 → Sony CCD-TR650E → Hauppauge WinTV-USB Live 2 → VirtualDub

In some cases, the capture turns out fine, and the audio stays in sync. However, in others, there is a noticeable delay between the audio and video. I also noticed dropped / inserted frames in VirtualDub, which I suspect is causing the sync issues.

From what I’ve read, a Time Base Corrector (TBC) might help resolve these problems. My father had the Panasonic AG-7500 as his VCR, which has a 'sync' function, but I’m not sure if this is the Line TBC that I’ve been reading about? I have tried to do a passthrough, but I did not really see a difference.

I also read that the Panasonic DMR-ES10 might provide some level of Line TBC correction, and I see them available locally at reasonable prices.

Would adding the DMR-ES10 to my workflow help resolve the dropped frames and audio sync issues? Any advice or alternative suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

[lordsmurf]

Audio sync errors are caused by dropped frames, due to a lack of frame TBC (not line TBC).

Line TBC cleans the image.
Frame TBC cleans the signal (thus preventing dropped/inserted frames).
You need both.

ES10 does not necessarily prevent dropped frames (and thus audio de-sync), as it is not a TBC. It does contain a strong+crippled line TBC, with a non-TBC frame sync. If your camera has a line TBC, the ES10 line TBC does nothing. You're then relying on a non-TBC frame sync, which is variable/random/iffy at stopping drops.

Does your camera have a line TBC? Some models are hard to find info for.

Hauppauge cards are also very touchy, no resilience. So it's just a bad combination.

If you attempt to skip frame TBC, and rely on the non-TBC frame sync in ES10, replacing that card will also be a must.

No VCR has frame TBC.
Line TBCs inside a VCR does not operate on passthrough, only on the tapes being played in it.

In terms of pricing, "buy it, use it, resell it", as it holds value. Any resale difference is essentially a rental fee.

So:
- adding frame TBC is ideal
- or ES10 + new capture cards + hope/pray

[aramkolt]

First thing to check is whether the camcorder you have has a line TBC in it or not (would be listed in the manual), if it doesn't, that'd be the first piece of equipment to upgrade and then see what changes. The more recent ones tend to be digital8 cameras that have reverse compatibility (not all do, so you want to verify that before purchasing). Some users like the top loading mechanisms more and I think the TRV140E comes to mind for a top loader that's not too hard to find in PAL land. Personally I'd avoid anything that ends with an 8, as it'll have mono audio output only. You might also try changing your settings as theoretically it should be possible to maintain audio sync even with some dropped frames. Ultimate fix would be a frame TBC, but depends how often the frame drops occur and if you can visually see anything off with the video, as well as what your budget is. DV capture also is viable and is kind of a compromise in terms of file size with requirements of about 13GB per hour as opposed to 35-40GB/Hr with lossless AVI. PAL DV will throw the color away on every other horizontal line, but in PAL-land, you have more horizontal lines to begin with. If you were to get a Digital8 camera, you can test that functionality for free since most have DV conversion via firewire as a standard and all you really need is a firewire cable and a computer with firewire to test. Audio sync issues with DV capture is rare, but I suppose anything is possible.

[lordsmurf]

But noting that both ES10 and DV will lower quality.

ES10 = hot luma (too bright), AGC (sudden bright), posterization (banding), etc
DV = blocks, color loss

Lossless captures + TBC doesn't do that.

[walruspants]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Audio sync errors are caused by dropped frames, due to a lack of frame TBC (not line TBC).

Line TBC cleans the image.
Frame TBC cleans the signal (thus preventing dropped/inserted frames).
You need both.

ES10 does not necessarily prevent dropped frames (and thus audio de-sync), as it is not a TBC. It does contain a strong+crippled line TBC, with a non-TBC frame sync. If your camera has a line TBC, the ES10 line TBC does nothing. You're then relying on a non-TBC frame sync, which is variable/random/iffy at stopping drops.

Thanks for your clear reply. I acually need both line and frame tbc for the best results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Does your camera have a line TBC? Some models are hard to find info for.

I do not know if the Sony CCD-TR650E has line TBC. Currently do not have the manual on hand, I will check this later when I can get a hold of a manual. Will this typically also be called line TBC in the manual?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Hauppauge cards are also very touchy, no resilience. So it's just a bad combination.

If you attempt to skip frame TBC, and rely on the non-TBC frame sync in ES10, replacing that card will also be a must.

No VCR has frame TBC.
Line TBCs inside a VCR does not operate on passthrough, only on the tapes being played in it.

Regarding the capture card I also have a 'Pinnacle Big Ben' PCI card, but do not have the connection box for the card. It this a better capture card then the Hauppage? Then I can see if I can get the connection box anyway.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by walruspants

I also have a 'Pinnacle Big Ben' PCI card

Nope, too old, not a good card. I refer to very specific Pinnacle cards, and specific versions therein, not just any random Pinnacle. They mostly made bad cards, with a pair of exceptions.